Light Rail Transit

[garthdanlor]

Yup.

BRT at the end of the day... Is still a bus.

The only way I would support BRT is if the 10 Conestoga, the 12, the iDepress became 100% BRT routes. Then put the rest of the money towards a GO Station in Kitchener; Which could help with the massive congestion the highways to Toronto get due to the amount of people who work in the GTA.

If LRT gets the axe, I'd almost prefer that we do not go with a BRT system and instead opt to improve the GRT with more iExpress style routes combined with a reconfiguration of existing routes, and then push for LRT again 5 years down the road. If we do opt for BRT and spend 600 million in the process, I doubt we would be able to successfully lobby for an LRT system anytime in the next 20-25 years due to all the money spent on BRT...opponents of LRT would use this cost as stick to beat down any proposal.

[Waterlooer]

http://www.570news.com/radio/570news...-s-in-now-what

Ottawa's in - now what?
570 News Sep 03, 2010 03:33:58 AM

The federal and provincial governments have now made their financial commitments to Waterloo Region's rapid transit plan.

Now we wait as regional council is not expected to make a move until after October's municipal elections.

Yesterday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper was in Kitchener and announced a federal pledge of up to $265 million dollars.

Harper says rapid transit will offer better service to riders, relieve congestion and cut travel times for everyone.

With the province's commitment already in place, just over two thirds of the 790-million-dollar bill is now covered.

If the region decides to push ahead with light rail, it will have to come up with the rest of the money.

Regional Chair Ken Seiling says staff will spend the next few months examining financing options, including possibly looking to the private sector.

They will also study whether any elements of the proposal need to be changed.

If everything goes as planned, light rail connecting Waterloo to Kitchener and rapid bus service linking those cities to Cambridge, will be up and running by 2015.

[mpd618]

If we do opt for BRT and spend 600 million in the process, I doubt we would be able to successfully lobby for an LRT system anytime in the next 20-25 years due to all the money spent on BRT...opponents of LRT would use this cost as stick to beat down any proposal.

It's worse than that, because replacing a bus highway with a rail corridor is difficult and expensive. It would have to be done to upgrade capacity, but there are no success stories out there to indicate that BRT isn't a dead-end.

[KevinL]

It's worse than that, because replacing a bus highway with a rail corridor is difficult and expensive. It would have to be done to upgrade capacity, but there are no success stories out there to indicate that BRT isn't a dead-end.

The only semi-successful BRT system I know of is Ottawa, and they had the advantage of lots of open corridors to work with. They've nonetheless had to replace their downtown bottleneck with an LRT tunnel as the streets there can no longer fit capacity.

[Waterlooer]

People are always going to be against anything that they have to pay a penny towards. I don't think people understand the pros of LRT, once they hear they have to pay an estimated $421 most people automatically say I'm not paying for that it's not necessary! The governments are ripping us off!! I bet you most people have no clue what LRT even is... people need to research all the pros and cons before making there decision of whether or not LRT is a good idea for our region.

[Spokes]

If LRT gets the axe, I'd almost prefer that we do not go with a BRT system and instead opt to improve the GRT with more iExpress style routes combined with a reconfiguration of existing routes, and then push for LRT again 5 years down the road. If we do opt for BRT and spend 600 million in the process, I doubt we would be able to successfully lobby for an LRT system anytime in the next 20-25 years due to all the money spent on BRT...opponents of LRT would use this cost as stick to beat down any proposal.

I feel the same way. Don't blow the money because it's there. I would imagine like other stimulus money there's an expiration date though?

[Spokes]

The only semi-successful BRT system I know of is Ottawa, and they had the advantage of lots of open corridors to work with. They've nonetheless had to replace their downtown bottleneck with an LRT tunnel as the streets there can no longer fit capacity.

The system in Ottawa is great. If they didn't experience any population growth. Like you said, just too much of a bottleneck downtown.

[Spokes]

People are always going to be against anything that they have to pay a penny towards. I don't think people understand the pros of LRT, once they hear they have to pay an estimated $421 most people automatically say I'm not paying for that it's not necessary! The governments are ripping us off!! I bet you most people have no clue what LRT even is... people need to research all the pros and cons before making there decision of whether or not LRT is a good idea for our region.

The majority of people are also saying, well Im not going to pay for it because Im not going to use it. But I can guarantee that their kids will, and their kid's kids. It's an investment not just for now but for future generations too.

[garthdanlor]

The system in Ottawa is great. If they didn't experience any population growth. Like you said, just too much of a bottleneck downtown.

Our downtowns are much narrower (with less through streets) than Ottawa so I guess even more bottlenecks here.

In the KW BRT proposal, there wasn't talk of returning Duke and Charles to one-way with a dedicated lane on each was there? Or even worse, some Gardiner type raised monstrosity?

[Spokes]

Our downtowns are much narrower (with less through streets) than Ottawa so I guess even more bottlenecks here.

In the KW BRT proposal, there wasn't talk of returning Duke and Charles to one-way with a dedicated lane on each was there? Or even worse, some Gardiner type raised monstrosity?

They better not make Duke and Charles one way. That'd be a HUGE mistake.

And ya our streets (some at least) are much narrower. King street is now very narrow, I can't imagine they'll run buses up and down there for a long time. The thing with Ottawa's streets is that a lot of them are one way so you get streets that are two and three lanes wide but only in one direction, some of which is taken up by on street parking between certain hours.

[Waterlooer]

The majority of people are also saying, well Im not going to pay for it because Im not going to use it. But I can guarantee that their kids will, and their kid's kids. It's an investment not just for now but for future generations too.

It's just like when they built the expressway in the 60's. Did we need it then... no, but now it's at full capacity and a great way to get around. The region is really good at making decisions that will benefit the region in the future, and LRT is one of thous decisions.

[KLM]

I dont think tax increase will fly here to support LRT.I can see comments like another money grab ,and so on.

At this point of time, GRT revision and overhaul of lines would be step forward.And I dont mean year 2020 , we need asap.
When we grow enough and show them ridership is there we have more chance getting LRT.

Of course better urban planning would help too.

[mpd618]

At this point of time, GRT revision and overhaul of lines would be step forward.And I dont mean year 2020 , we need asap.

The recently approved Transportation Master Plan is doing this. It's tripling service levels over the next twenty years, adding five new express routes in the next five years, increasing frequency and evening/weekend service, etc. This means we're going to be seeing serious service additions every year starting with the 2011 budget.

When we grow enough and show them ridership is there we have more chance getting LRT.

No, not really. Ridership has been demonstrated with the iXpress, and the capital costs for LRT are only going to go up, up, and way up. Opposition will always be about it being something they won't use, too expensive, we don't need it right this instant, it doesn't serve the boondocks, why don't you just expand the highways instead, why should we spend money on "them", etc.

If we don't do it now or very soon, we will be very sorry in 10-15 years.

[garthdanlor]

Opposition will always be about it being something they won't use, too expensive, we don't need it right this instant, it doesn't serve the boondocks, why don't you just expand the highways instead, why should we spend money on "them", etc.

Exactly. I have a feeling that after discrediting LRT for being too expensive, etc., the opposition will then turn its sights on BRT for pretty much the same reasons.

At some point the local governments will have to take a stand and do what's best for the Region...

[Rowe]

^ For some reason... I don't think that will happen.

This region is very 'conservative' when it comes to spending.

[KevinL]

^ For some reason... I don't think that will happen.

This region is very 'conservative' when it comes to spending.

I have to disagree. Seiling, Zehr and Halloran, and many of their councillors, have shown strong political will towards this.

Of course, this is now THE municipal election issue; nonetheless I'm confident things will still shake out in favour of this.

[Urbanomicon]

Our downtowns are much narrower (with less through streets) than Ottawa so I guess even more bottlenecks here.

In the KW BRT proposal, there wasn't talk of returning Duke and Charles to one-way with a dedicated lane on each was there? Or even worse, some Gardiner type raised monstrosity?

I don't think you have to worry about a Gardiner-type elevated highway any time soon. Kilometre for kilometre, LRT is substantially cheaper than an elevated highway. An elevated highway usually runs from $50-$100 million per kilometre (depending on width). This is based on the cost of the Gardiner Expressway adjusted for inflation to today's dollars.

[mpd618]

Exactly. I have a feeling that after discrediting LRT for being too expensive, etc., the opposition will then turn its sights on BRT for pretty much the same reasons.

And unfortunately, BRT means anything and everything. Take away the dedicated lane in a portion to save some money? Sure! Run it on this other street because it's cheaper? Sure! Dig up the street for a month? Sure! Don't provide level boarding because it's too hard? Sure!

People such as "Taxpayers for Sensible Transit" would be the first ones to call for cutting corners in order to save them from spending any taxes on transit.

[Rowe]

I have to disagree. Seiling, Zehr and Halloran, and many of their councillors, have shown strong political will towards this.

Of course, this is now THE municipal election issue; nonetheless I'm confident things will still shake out in favour of this.

I hope your right.

[Ktown4ever]

If you support rapid transit, the ctv poll could use your vote:

http://www.southwesternontario.ctv.ca/