Light Rail Transit

[DHLawrence]

If they hurry, Hamilton could get in on the order as well.

[BigCityBoy]

So it looks like we're getting Bombardier trains given TO's stalling on the order and our ability to 'piggy-back' on the order. I play craps and when you give a dealer a lift on the back of your bet you call it a 'piggy-back'. Hope its not all for the dealers here. They say the delivery will be fast-tracked given the 'piggy-back' so looks like we'll save a penny to spend a pound here and get the trains even faster. Hurrah!

[Duck]

Re: Bombardier - just read the news. Thrilled! As I write this, I can hear light rail trams rolling below our hotel room window along the streets of Oslo Bergen, Norway has some great Bombardier/Staedler units, too... Mechanically these are identical to what we're getting (5 sections, 3 bogies).



-Iain

[garthdanlor]

Looks great. So it seems we are going for 14 trains initially, maybe with options on up to 35 by 2031. Obviously this is planning for future service enhancement on the KW line. Could it also be a placeholder for vehicles for LRT phase 2 if/when the Cambridge line happens, or is this planning based strictly on the phase 1 length of the line?

[zanate]

They say the delivery will be fast-tracked given the 'piggy-back' so looks like we'll save a penny to spend a pound here and get the trains even faster. Hurrah!

Not sure how your craps analogy leads to a save-a-penny-to-spend-a-pound conclusion. Do you think the Metrolinx deal better or worse than tendering separately? I'd be interested to hear your analysis.

From here it looks like an obviously beneficial step. This is as close to "off-the-shelf" Waterloo can get for vehicle procurement, and the savings should be substantial. Probably enough to bring the total vehicle cost substantially under its budget (expected ~$4M per train, 14 trains, $100M vehicle budget that must also still buy aBRT buses).

Looks great. So it seems we are going for 14 trains initially, maybe with options on up to 35 by 2031. Obviously this is planning for future service enhancement on the KW line. Could it also be a placeholder for vehicles for LRT phase 2 if/when the Cambridge line happens, or is this planning based strictly on the phase 1 length of the line?

I haven't seen any writing in of an option for "up to 35" yet... let me know if you have. All I have seen is speculation that we will need 30-35 LRVs by 2031, and that would most likely be based on phase 2 (more line means more vehicles to maintain same frequency) in combination with possible higher frequency to meet demand.

[garthdanlor]

I haven't seen any writing in of an option for "up to 35" yet... let me know if you have. All I have seen is speculation that we will need 30-35 LRVs by 2031...

No, just paraphrasing the Record article (which gets most of its info from the Region report) which indicates that "there could be provisions in the contract to buy more trains", and then indicates the 30-35 that might be needed by 2031.

[mpd618]

I haven't seen any writing in of an option for "up to 35" yet... let me know if you have. All I have seen is speculation that we will need 30-35 LRVs by 2031, and that would most likely be based on phase 2 (more line means more vehicles to maintain same frequency) in combination with possible higher frequency to meet demand.

There isn't a contract yet. Staff have just been given direction to negotiate one, but it will come back to Council.

[SP!RE]

Hey guys!

I've been really out of the loop on the Waterloo LRT for the last year (at least!) and I want to change that. I know it's not much of an excuse but I've been living in Toronto so it's harder for me to stay connected to what's happening with the Waterloo LRT.

Just a few quick questions to get me up to speed:

1) What is the current stage in the planning process for LRT? What is being worked on at the moment, but at city hall/ with the planners and with the public?

2) Are the trains we're getting the exact same as the new Toronto Metrolinx LRV's? (ie. Eglinton Crosstown Line)

3) What year realistically is it looking like we will be putting the shovel in the ground to start building the LRT? I would imagine it's getting close, no? (Given that we've put in our order of vehicles to Bombardier now).

Thanks in advance!

[DHLawrence]

I'm not sure about 1) and 3) but 2) was just answered by the Region--they will indeed be piggybacking on the Metrolinx order to lower costs. It would be nice if a few other cities could get in on it and bring the cost down further.

[SP!RE]

Okay, so those would be the same vehicles as the Eglinton Crosstown Line here in Toronto. Sweet

[HillDweller]

Hey guys!

I've been really out of the loop on the Waterloo LRT for the last year (at least!) and I want to change that. I know it's not much of an excuse but I've been living in Toronto so it's harder for me to stay connected to what's happening with the Waterloo LRT.

Just a few quick questions to get me up to speed:

1) What is the current stage in the planning process for LRT? What is being worked on at the moment, but at city hall/ with the planners and with the public?

2) Are the trains we're getting the exact same as the new Toronto Metrolinx LRV's? (ie. Eglinton Crosstown Line)

3) What year realistically is it looking like we will be putting the shovel in the ground to start building the LRT? I would imagine it's getting close, no? (Given that we've put in our order of vehicles to Bombardier now).

Thanks in advance!

Land acquisition is ongoing now. Service relocations (sewers, water, hydro, etc.) will be starting in early to mid-2013. Construction of the LRT will start in 2014 and be finished in 2017. The biggest challenge will be the rail underpass at the HUB.

[Duck]

Okay, so those would be the same vehicles as the Eglinton Crosstown Line here in Toronto. Sweet

Yes! Same as the Crosstown LRV's, but different from the unidirectional, right-side-doors-only, wider-gauge customized FLEXITY units that are also part of that order to replace the ALRV/CLRV's (streetcars). I think it gets lost in all the changes that have happened that they have two similar yet very different vehicles on order.

-Iain

[SP!RE]

Very good of you to clarify that for people on here who haven't been able to sort out the confusing 2-different-but-similar-trains-on-order situation in Toronto, haha. It's quite hard for the public to get their head around, and until recently, myself included.

The Bombardiers Waterloo/Eglinton Crosstown are going to have are sexy. I'm excited that those are the ones we're getting!

[mpd618]

1) What is the current stage in the planning process for LRT? What is being worked on at the moment, but at city hall/ with the planners and with the public?

The Region recently hired a general engineering consultant, and they are working on the specifications for the construction-operation contract. There are multiple studies ongoing regarding the King/Victoria transit hub. Another ongoing study by Urban Strategies is working on a development strategy for the LRT corridor - this has had several public / stakeholder sessions in the last couple of months, and there is a project storefront.

2) Are the trains we're getting the exact same as the new Toronto Metrolinx LRV's? (ie. Eglinton Crosstown Line)

Staff have been given direction to work on a contract. There could be room for some flexibility, presumably - but we'll see when the contract is brought back to Council.

3) What year realistically is it looking like we will be putting the shovel in the ground to start building the LRT? I would imagine it's getting close, no? (Given that we've put in our order of vehicles to Bombardier now).

Just as the trains are being taken out of the DBFOM contract, it looks like some utility relocation may be as well. In which case work on that could probably begin this year. The process for the specification design and bidding is quite protracted, so shovels for that contract would not begin until 2014.

[metropolis]

LRT train buy raise ire of competitor
By Ryan Flanagan, For the Chronicle

Regional council’s attempt to piggyback on a provincial contract for light rail transit vehicles has irked at least one spurned company.

Representatives from Siemens Canada appeared at last Wednesday’s council meeting, voicing their opposition to the proposal.
Councillors originally approved the piggyback in June, which will see the region attempt to add its order to an existing contract between provincial transit agency Metrolinx and train manufacturer Bombardier.

The existing contract calls for more than 200 vehicles to be provided for new LRT projects in Toronto. Waterloo Region is looking to add 14 five-car trains to the order.

Marco Jungbeker, vice-president of Siemens Canada’s rail systems division, said his company knew nothing of the region’s decision until reading about it in media reports last week.

“We were very surprised,” he told councillors.

“The process . . . was not transparent for us. We believe the process is a non-competitive procurement and is also a closed process — and, we think, not in the best interests of the Kitchener-Waterloo LRT project.”

Coun. Jim Wideman called Jungbeker’s claims “not an accurate reflection of what is happening.”

He pointed to Metrolinx as having already gone through the competitive process when they signed their contract with Bombardier in 2009.

Siemens bid on that contract, but at a little over $1.5 billion lost out to Bombardier’s $993-million bid.

Other piggybacking scenarios in the United States — in Salt Lake City, Atlanta, and Hampton Roads — have seen Siemens as the beneficiary, said Wideman.

“I was surprised by what they said, that they would say this was not an open, competitive process when they themselves have been the recipient of the same process in three different occasions. It seemed like it was OK then,” he said.

Jungbeker also questioned why the region was procuring vehicles separate from the rest of the private-sector DBFOM (design, build, operate, finance, maintain) contract.

“There are no DBFOM projects in the world that have procured the vehicles separately from building the LRT line,” he told councillors.

“The separate procurement of vehicles will create additional costs for the region. It will commission time delays. It will add interface requirements.”

Regional transportation commissioner Thomas Schmidt said one doesn’t have to look very far to find a project where vehicles were procured separately — only as far as the same contract Waterloo Region is looking to piggyback on.

“We have one locally in Toronto,” he said.

“They’re procuring their vehicles under separate contracts from Bombardier and they will be doing their procurement of the rail lines separately.”

Jungbeker said Siemens would be able to manufacture the vehicles for less than the $4 million per vehicle Metrolinx is receiving from Bombardier, and do so with some of the manufacturing process occurring in Waterloo Region, creating jobs.

In an interview, Wideman questioned how this would be possible when Siemens’ bid on the Metrolinx contract came in at $7 million per vehicle.

“Normally when you buy a bigger quantity, it’s cheaper, so I don’t know how they could possibly suggest to us that they could do it for under $4 million,” he said.

Councillors did not opt to change their course, giving unanimous final approval to the piggyback negotiations. The result of negotiations will come before council in the fall.

“We are disappointed and we are surprised,” said Jungbeker after the vote.

“There is a competitive process. I don’t know why this council doesn’t want to do it.”

[Duck]

Bombardier makes a better unit anyway. The Siemens ones I've ridden are pretty spartan.

-Iain

[DHLawrence]

They made the same complaint when Toronto bought their CLRV replacements. Nobody cared.

Does Siemens build their LRVs domestically or in the States?

[mpd618]

Does Siemens build their LRVs domestically or in the States?

Siemens has a plant in Sacramento for the North American market, and I don't believe anyone except Bombardier builds any kinds of passenger rail vehicles in Canada right now.

[Duck]

Preview the new trains we'll be getting (Bombardier FLEXITY) starting this weekend at the CNE:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tran...nto-s-new-lrvs

-Iain

[Waterlooian4Life]

The Flexity was on display at the Calgary Stampede this year. They are really nice! Great Low Floor design