Light Rail Transit

[mpd618]

IMHO, the chances that Cambridge will ever get LRT are slim to nil - the Region needs to be more honest in its discussion of the issue.

This discussion has taken place before, and I don't want to get into it myself. But I'll just note that the Region is itself doing planning of transit and development specifically in order to support the extension of LRT into Cambridge.

[BuildingScout]

Backwards-ass Cambridge will never have the population, traffic, density or desire necessary to justify the track being extended.

I think you might be too pessimistic on this one.

I think that population increase for Cambridge has been larger than for Waterloo, though I couldn't find any hard data last time I looked.

As ell Cambride is currently serviced by the iXpress already and it is not to up to them if they are to be served or not by LRT that is a RoW decision.

Only time will tell.

[Greg Moore]

I suspect after Phase 1 it will be announced that Phase 2 will shift the new rail lines to Kitchener-Waterloo from Cambridge because "no one in the past four years has taken light rail from KW to Cambridge."

Kidding of course.

I think that Cambridge will get LRT in phase 2. The LRT is a growth plan (as well as a transportation plan) and Cambridge deserves it's share of the potential economic growth from light rail. I don't foresee and justifiable denial for Cambridge not getting rail service in phase 2.

[panamaniac]

It might help the discussion along for you to provide a case for why you feel it is so unlikely that LRT will be built in Cambridge. Be as specific as possible, as the more informed your opinion is, the better the resulting debate is likely to be.

From subsequent comments on the thread, it is probably best not to dwell on the matter. I confess that I have no more than a "gut" feeling and, in hindsight, should probably have written "not in my lifetime" (I am pushing 60) rather than "ever". It seems to me that the population of Cambridge would need to more than double to make LRT a viable proposition. Beyond this, I strongly suspect that we are heading toward difficult economic times and levels of restraint by all levels of government that we have not seen before and that are likely be of long duration, such that the prospects for senior government funding for phase 2 LRT strike me as increasingly remote. I should add that I do not oppose LRT to Cambridge and believe the planning should proceed, I just doubt that it will prove to be feasible for quite some time.

[Osiris]

I think you might be too pessimistic on this one.

I think that population increase for Cambridge has been larger than for Waterloo, though I couldn't find any hard data last time I looked.

As ell Cambride is currently serviced by the iXpress already and it is not to up to them if they are to be served or not by LRT that is a RoW decision.

Only time will tell.

You know - I find this interesting as I do expect Cambridge's population to grow, but not for any sustainable reason - I've always viewed the region as having defining age bands 20 years apart (or at least, their attitudes) as you head North to South. So Waterloo - 25, Kitchener - 45, Cambridge - 65. As the boomers reach retirement I'd expect Cambridge to grow for this reason.

Throw in a bunch of stereotypes - namely that the car-entitled boomers are loathe to give up their freedoms - and I think it makes it even harder to make headway with this in Cambridge (along with the necessary density).

Hopefully mpd's comment about RoW's planning is enough - and that despite having to fight Cambridge seemingly every step of the way we don't decide to just stop forcing them to take their medicine and let them die. </dramatic>

[BuildingScout]

Throw in a bunch of stereotypes - namely that the car-entitled boomers are loathe to give up their freedoms - and I think it makes it even harder to make headway with this in Cambridge (along with the necessary density).

You might be right. Then again a large number of 80 year olds that can no longer drive will be demanding public transit and shopping conveniences near by, just like they demanded large backyards and subsidized subdivisions back when they were having children. We are already seeing it with the ease with which buildings are now approved in the Uptown core, after decades of staunch opposition from the same constituency.

[dunkalunk]

Just throwing this out there but what do forumers think the likelihood of shortening the route through Cambridge in order to hasten construction time? I'm speaking in particular of putting the line along the rail corridor/coronation instead of along Eagle/Hespeler. I know that many Cambridge councillors will have nothing of it, but hear me out.

The way I see it, Cambridge will have something that is not that functionally different than a curbside busway before light rail is put in place along Hespeler. Hespeler would make a good corridor for a full curbside BRT with a heavily served trunk and a number of branching lines.

Hespeler Road also already carries a large amount of through surface traffic on 24. Until a full boundary road is constructed, intercity traffic will continue to use this corridor. This may just be pessimism, but I honestly can't see Light Rail ever spawning the density as advertised on Hespeler between Pinebush and Coronation which is already so heavily auto-dominated.

I also see the route along Eagle street as excessively destructive. I personally can't see how this corridor would intensify past it's current use despite requiring the demolition of the entire side of the street. The route along Eagle also bypasses some incredible urbanization potential that exists in Preston's core (King and Westminster) as well as it's development-ready tight street grid. Waterloo Region could do well with another diverse core district instead of a phalanx of soulless medium-low quality "luxury" apartments with few ameneties.

For those that know the GTA, I'd rather have a Davisville (High density anchors at north and south with a vibrant streetlife between) Than a Hurontario (Medium-High density throughout with non-vibrant streetlife). For those that want cheap luxury Condos with plenty of parking and easy highway access, the main drag of Hespeler will always be there.

A Cambridge Rail/Coronation route would serve as a truly rapid line, having speeds much closer to an interurban service than the current light rail route. The reason why the iXpress works so well in Cambridge is because it is a truly rapid line bypassing Preston and Sportsworld to deliver express service. If a line were to add 3 stops and 10 minutes to the route, the line would be less useful. In addition, the region is planning on investing in bus bypass shoulders on the 401 and has already done so on Highway 8.

This may have turned into a bit of a rant, but any thoughts?

[bcwessel]

Just throwing this out there but what do forumers think the likelihood of shortening the route through Cambridge in order to hasten construction time? I'm speaking in particular of putting the line along the rail corridor/coronation instead of along Eagle/Hespeler. I know that many Cambridge councillors will have nothing of it, but hear me out.

The way I see it, Cambridge will have something that is not that functionally different than a curbside busway before light rail is put in place along Hespeler. Hespeler would make a good corridor for a full curbside BRT with a heavily served trunk and a number of branching lines.

Hespeler Road also already carries a large amount of through surface traffic on 24. Until a full boundary road is constructed, intercity traffic will continue to use this corridor. This may just be pessimism, but I honestly can't see Light Rail ever spawning the density as advertised on Hespeler between Pinebush and Coronation which is already so heavily auto-dominated.

I also see the route along Eagle street as excessively destructive. I personally can't see how this corridor would intensify past it's current use despite requiring the demolition of the entire side of the street. The route along Eagle also bypasses some incredible urbanization potential that exists in Preston's core (King and Westminster) as well as it's development-ready tight street grid. Waterloo Region could do well with another diverse core district instead of a phalanx of soulless medium-low quality "luxury" apartments with few ameneties.

For those that know the GTA, I'd rather have a Davisville (High density anchors at north and south with a vibrant streetlife between) Than a Hurontario (Medium-High density throughout with non-vibrant streetlife). For those that want cheap luxury Condos with plenty of parking and easy highway access, the main drag of Hespeler will always be there.

A Cambridge Rail/Coronation route would serve as a truly rapid line, having speeds much closer to an interurban service than the current light rail route. The reason why the iXpress works so well in Cambridge is because it is a truly rapid line bypassing Preston and Sportsworld to deliver express service. If a line were to add 3 stops and 10 minutes to the route, the line would be less useful. In addition, the region is planning on investing in bus bypass shoulders on the 401 and has already done so on Highway 8.

This may have turned into a bit of a rant, but any thoughts?

While I really like the idea of a stronger transit link between the Preston and Galt cores, and feel that the direct corridor linking these two important nodes presents opportunities for really good, cheap, immediate intensification, ultimately I think you're far too quick to dismiss the opportunities presented by the Hespler Rd. corridor. If sustained, long-term growth is still possible, it appears more and more likely that the rehabilitation of sprawl will come to absorb an increasingly large part of future capital accumulation (see DPZ's Galina Tachieva's Sprawl Repair Manual for details on the articulation of the idea of sprawl repair, as well as details for some projects at various stages of planning and completion).

In this context, one which assumes that the rehabilitation of dysfunctional built environments based on a pattern of maximum retention of existing structures and infrastructures is the next major spatial fix, Hespler Rd. must be viewed as one of the Region's greatest untapped resources. It comprises an incredible amount of space, asphalt, concrete, grading, water services, electrical services, etc., all of which can be modified and recomposed to function in more efficient, sustainable, cost-effective, and ultimately rewarding ways.

Obviously, it will take some time - probably quite a lot of time - for the local development community, local planning bodies, land owners and tenants, and other direct and indirect stakeholders to embrace the emerging discourse of sprawl rehabilitation, and perhaps just as long for early-adopter practitioners to work out a system of best-practices which can be brought to the marketplace efficiently and effectively, and distributed to status-quo planners and developers in a package which makes sense to them. However, if these discussions proceed immediately, the groundwork for a vibrant, exciting, human-scaled corridor with excellent local, regional and inter-regional multi-modal transit access could be complete by the time LRT expansion is set to move forward.

As mentioned above, I do feel that the Coronation corridor is an excellent candidate for major infrastructure improvements as well. Apart from the roughly 2.5 kms between of Coronation Blvd itself (between Concession Rd./King St. and Hespler Rd./Water St.), this corridor (King/Coronation/Dundas between Eagle and Beverly, let's say) is already organized in the pattern of a rational, highly connective street grid, meaning that it's already relatively primed to become more urban. It doesn't require a lot of new hard infrastructure like major street re-alignments. Much of it just needs to be filled in (back in, in many cases) with new, more appropriately scaled and organized development.

Frequent high-quality transit, along with major improvements to the western bank of the Grand between Preston and Galt (some of this has already been proposed, and I would love to see a continuous riverside park, complete with multi-use trail between the cores) should be priorities as a means of servicing what I feel is the inevitable re-urbanization of Galt and Preston.

However, as far as your Coronation LRT alignment receiving the political support necessary to be considered, I have a feeling that its total exclusion of Hespler (already a major issue with the currently-proposed alignment) makes the idea completely untenable in the medium term, unless perhaps as a stage 3, 4 or 5 expansion of the system. While I'm loathe to endorse political considerations in the context of transit planning, I have a hard time not sympathizing with the short straw already drawn by Hespler, and any plan which puts it at a further remove from major Region-wide initiatives are accordingly difficult to feel good about and get behind.

If I'm not mistaken, Coronation is already scheduled for iXpress-style upgrades in the future, so hopefully this isn't just an exercise in wishful thinking.

[bcwessel]

To clarify a point touched on above, part of what makes the idea of re-developing suburban highway corridors like Hespler Road so intriguing is the relative ease with which large parcels of already-service land can be completely reorganized. There's nothing worth loving on Hespler Road, evidenced by its near-universal panning by anyone familiar with it. This means that you can change it in truly dramatic ways without running into the obstacles of preservation and even NIMBYism in many (though of course not all) cases.

Redeveloping sites/districts with any kind of claim (sometimes legitimate, others quite facile in nature) can take years. If you want to build an extension at the front of a strip mall parking lot, it really only takes the presentation of a strong business case to the owner of the land. Should Regional planners find their way toward creating an attractive, profitable, hassle-free eco-system for the right kind of development, the transformation here could be quite rapid and comprehensive.

[KevinL]

On a purely aesthetic point, I've always felt Coronation Blvd would look great with LRT - those wide grass medians could remain verdant but become useful by hosting tracks!

But the point remains that there's fewer opportunities in that part of town - Preston has little free space and while the hospital is a large destination, it's not as high a priority. I have to remain on the side of Hespeler Rd for the corridor.

[mpd618]

Personally, I think an LRT alignment along Hespeler Road would be complemented very well by a resurrected rail link between Galt, Preston, Hespeler, and Guelph. That kind of connection would do a lot to tie Cambridge together.

[WaterlooNative]

Beyond this, I strongly suspect that we are heading toward difficult economic times and levels of restraint by all levels of government that we have not seen before and that are likely be of long duration, such that the prospects for senior government funding for phase 2 LRT strike me as increasingly remote. I should add that I do not oppose LRT to Cambridge and believe the planning should proceed, I just doubt that it will prove to be feasible for quite some time.

How many other grand projects have their knees cut out from under them by circumstances beyond their control? I fully expect Phase 2 to have far less upper government support due to tightening belts. I hope the Region has figured out how to raise enough funds to operate Phase 1, boost non-LRT service and finance Phase 2 (I doubt they can do it on fare hikes alone, nor should they). If not, we will end up with a rump that leaves the southern half of the Region at loose ends.

[Daev]

However, as far as your Coronation LRT alignment receiving the political support necessary to be considered, I have a feeling that its total exclusion of Hespler (already a major issue with the currently-proposed alignment) makes the idea completely untenable in the medium term, unless perhaps as a stage 3, 4 or 5 expansion of the system. While I'm loathe to endorse political considerations in the context of transit planning, I have a hard time not sympathizing with the short straw already drawn by Hespler, and any plan which puts it at a further remove from major Region-wide initiatives are accordingly difficult to feel good about and get behind.

This x 1000. Even the current Phase 2 Plan leaves no official tie in to Hespeler. If Cambridge is sick of being treated like the Ugly Step-Child of the Region, then Hespeler is the equivalent of that for Cambridge. Our only hope is that one day we would see a connection with an expansion to Guelph ... but that is even more laughable then Phase 2 of the current plan.

In other words, Hespeler will probably never be transit friendly. It may sound harsh and pessimistic, but I like to think that it's mostly reality based around the problem of us having a "transit river" that separates us from Galt and Preston.

[mpd618]

In other words, Hespeler will probably never be transit friendly. It may sound harsh and pessimistic, but I like to think that it's mostly reality based around the problem of us having a "transit river" that separates us from Galt and Preston.

I don't really agree with this outlook. The only reason Hespeler is not transit friendly is because it's on the edge of an artificial municipal boundary. If Guelph and Cambridge were in the same transit agency's turf, there is no question in my mind that there would be a route between the two that would pass through Hespeler. It's been 10 years since Grand River Transit was formed, and Waterloo Region has set its sights higher, with LRT, GRT expansion, advocacy for GO trains and high-speed rail, and steps toward regional transit connections. I think it will not be that long before those boundaries are crossed, and we get the obvious connections put in place.

[Daev]

I don't really agree with this outlook. The only reason Hespeler is not transit friendly is because it's on the edge of an artificial municipal boundary. If Guelph and Cambridge were in the same transit agency's turf, there is no question in my mind that there would be a route between the two that would pass through Hespeler.

Not going to disagree with you here, likely it would.

It's been 10 years since Grand River Transit was formed, and Waterloo Region has set its sights hight, with LRT, GRT expansion advocacy for GO trains and high-speed rail, and steps toward regional transit connections. I think it will not be that long before thos boundaries are crossed, and we get the obvious connections put in place.

From here on in I just simply can't agree with everything said. Yes our region is looking forward to LRT, GRT expansion, etc. But is Guelph looking to do the same? Does Guelph have overwhelming demand for a high-speed LRT connection to Kitchener/Cambridge? Not really. Once again the argument gets made that we already have several highways that connect these cities, we also now have GO trains expanding between the cities. Again ... another argument why we don't need a separate rail connection to Guelph.

Sure it may come "some day" ... but that day is probably 20-30 years in the future. Hespeler is already developed as a very car dependent city, same with Guelph. We already lack proper cycling/pedestrian infrastructure to connect us to the rest of Cambridge (ie. Franklin Boulevard). Do you still see a train built before these basic necessities are met?

Also with taxes/fares for GRT increasing as much as they are already with the current LRT line, let alone expansion to Preston/Galt. How feasible really is a LRT running approximately 20 Kilometers from Smartcenter through Hespeler to Guelph?? Your talking already spending more than the current Phase 1 of LRT for way less ridership. There will never be any way in the next 10-20 years with current planned tax increases, job losses, etc that you are going to get that plan passed.

I am not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. Which are the very reasons why I plan to leave this backwards village for a more urban setting. I love Hespeler, grew up here and am fond of the little town feel as well as the Speed River running through our backyard. But like it or not, this village doesn't lend itself well in it's current location to local transit.

If you want to see a push for this link, it will probably have to come from the citizens of Guelph. Before then, we will be focused on getting a line between Galt -> Preston -> Kitchener -> Waterloo -> Elmira. That's the best way to do it, a straight line that hits most of the core areas. Going to Hespeler would truly be the "White Elephant" that everyone hates so much.

[DHLawrence]

A more solid transit link of some sort between the two would be an asset. Two trains a day isn't going to make a difference, especially in Cambridge. I used to commute to U of G every day and hated every minute. I would have preferred it if someone else did the driving. If not a rail link, then at least an iXpress route.

[mpd618]

From here on in I just simply can't agree with everything said. Yes our region is looking forward to LRT, GRT expansion, etc. But is Guelph looking to do the same?

Yes, it is. It may not be willing to spearhead it, but this is in Guelph's own transit planning documents and it may be willing to sign onto a Waterloo Region project. I do believe Waterloo Region and Guelph are each other's largest external travel destinations.

Sure it may come "some day" ... but that day is probably 20-30 years in the future. Hespeler is already developed as a very car dependent city, same with Guelph. We already lack proper cycling/pedestrian infrastructure to connect us to the rest of Cambridge (ie. Franklin Boulevard). Do you still see a train built before these basic necessities are met?

Yep. A train line is a coherent project, whereas sidewalk infrastructure is a hodgepodge of individual segments that is difficult to perceive as a whole, and many of those individual segments are not likely to ever get used much. Even though a sidewalk may seem more basic, a complete sidewalk network is not necessarily easier to get done. Nor is it necessarily more important.

Also with taxes/fares for GRT increasing as much as they are already with the current LRT line, let alone expansion to Preston/Galt. How feasible really is a LRT running approximately 20 Kilometers from Smartcenter through Hespeler to Guelph?? Your talking already spending more than the current Phase 1 of LRT for way less ridership. There will never be any way in the next 10-20 years with current planned tax increases, job losses, etc that you are going to get that plan passed.

I don't agree. First, you always, always start with bus service to built up and prove the demand. Second, intercity rail is a lot cheaper thanks to essentially being greenfield development -- there's no utilities to get out of the way, easier property impacts, and no intersections and streets to rebuild. It can also be substantially cheaper to start a basic service by going with DMUs rather than electrifying first. Trains are not that expensive -- what is expensive is urban infrastructure of any kind.

If a Cambridge-Guelph link shared on-street tracks in Galt with LRT phase 2, I think the rest of it could be launched for $50-100 million.

[Daev]

Yes, it is. It may not be willing to spearhead it, but this is in Guelph's own transit planning documents and it may be willing to sign onto a Waterloo Region project. I do believe Waterloo Region and Guelph are each other's largest external travel destinations.



Yep. A train line is a coherent project, whereas sidewalk infrastructure is a hodgepodge of individual segments that is difficult to perceive as a whole, and many of those individual segments are not likely to ever get used much. Even though a sidewalk may seem more basic, a complete sidewalk network is not necessarily easier to get done. Nor is it necessarily more important.



I don't agree. First, you always, always start with bus service to built up and prove the demand. Second, intercity rail is a lot cheaper thanks to essentially being greenfield development -- there's no utilities to get out of the way, easier property impacts, and no intersections and streets to rebuild. It can also be substantially cheaper to start a basic service by going with DMUs rather than electrifying first. Trains are not that expensive -- what is expensive is urban infrastructure of any kind.

If a Cambridge-Guelph link shared on-street tracks in Galt with LRT phase 2, I think the rest of it could be launched for $50-100 million.

Okay, fair enough. I won't disagree with any of those assertions. However it does beg to ask a few questions...

First off being, if this is such a viable link then shouldn't it be relatively easy to stick a new iXpress type service through here to Guelph? ... or would that prove too difficult with a non-amalgamated system between the 2 regions?

I don't want to come off as sounding that Hespeler is in dire straits ... but there was time during the month of December during GRT's "service reductions" that made travel between Kitchener->Hespeler damn near impossible. My only option one particular day involved me going all the way down Hespeler Road to Galt, just so I could switch to the Franklin Boulevard bus and switchback across northern Cambridge. Total trip time would have been close to 2-3 hours. Needless to say, I chose to get off at the Dumbcenter and walk the 1.5 hours it takes to get to my house. It's experiences like this that make me say "it's no wonder you never see people in Hespeler riding transit".

I don't doubt your cost estimates for building a rail link, nor your belief of building up the ridership first with buses. But neither of those options seem to be in consideration at the moment. Also part of me wonders how much of a fowl taste will be left in the mouths of taxpayers after Phase 1 that they will not want to spend that kind of money.

I really do hope that I could see an iXpress style service going to Guelph soon, it would make me want to visit that city more!

[Bureaucromancer]

If a Cambridge-Guelph link shared on-street tracks in Galt with LRT phase 2, I think the rest of it could be launched for $50-100 million.

I don't think you're off hugely, but a lot will depend on traffic levels through Guelph on the North Mainline by the time this gets built, and what kind of concessions on light/heavy rail separation we can get from transport Canada. If rebuilding and expanding the rail line through western Guelph gets billed to light rail that price could jump quite a bit.

That said, I do tend to think it would be a better idea to push for all day GO service to Kitchener and DMUs on Cambridge - Guelph BEFORE extending the Milton line to Cambridge. I'm also not sure that running down Hespeler is neccessarily a better deal than following the route parallel to Coronation to Galt for a direct connection with the Milton line should it ever be extended; it doesn't hurt that this option would allow heavy rail DMUs to be used without any regulatory problems (OPTO on mainline still seems closer than mixing heavy and light rail vehicles at this point, and certainly has fewer infrastructure requirements).

[mpd618]

First off being, if this is such a viable link then shouldn't it be relatively easy to stick a new iXpress type service through here to Guelph? ... or would that prove too difficult with a non-amalgamated system between the 2 regions?

The only real difficulty is that there are two agencies under two municipalities. So the questions are about who funds it, who runs it, how fares are collected, and so on. Potentially another difficulty would be if a private company owned a monopoly on the run - which may or may not be Greyhound.

I don't want to come off as sounding that Hespeler is in dire straits ... but there was time during the month of December during GRT's "service reductions" that made travel between Kitchener->Hespeler damn near impossible. My only option one particular day involved me going all the way down Hespeler Road to Galt, just so I could switch to the Franklin Boulevard bus and switchback across northern Cambridge. Total trip time would have been close to 2-3 hours. Needless to say, I chose to get off at the Dumbcenter and walk the 1.5 hours it takes to get to my house. It's experiences like this that make me say "it's no wonder you never see people in Hespeler riding transit".

Hespeler's GRT access could be fixed by getting rid of Hespeler Terminal, and having the Hespeler St and Franklin Blvd buses run across the 401 and into downtown Hespeler, maybe each doing a loop at the end. With, of course, a decent range of service hours.