City Centre Condominiums | 63 , 52 m | 17 , 14 fl

[UrbanWaterloo]

City Centre Condominiums/Kitchener's Centre Block
King Street West (between Young and Ontario), Kitchener
Developer: Andrin Limited
Architect: Quadrangle Architects
City Website (http://www.kitchener.ca/en/businessinkitchener/centre_block.asp) | Sales Website (www.livingatcitycentre.ca) | Twitter (http://twitter.com/AndrinKitchener)
Preview Pricing (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/9-City-Centre-Condominiums-63-52-m-17-14-fl-Sales-Have-Begun!-(October-2nd)?p=15635#post15635) | Grand Opening Pricing (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/9-City-Centre-Condominiums-63-52-m-17-14-fl-Sales-(Model-Opens-Feb-26th)?p=26735#post26735)
Model (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/9-City-Centre-Condominiums-63-52-m-17-14-fl-Sales-Have-Begun!-(October-2nd)?p=15647#post15647) | Rendering (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/9-City-Centre-Condominiums-63-52-m-17-14-fl-Sales-Have-Begun!-(October-2nd)?p=15751#post15751)
Floor Plans: Penthouses (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/9-City-Centre-Condominiums-63-52-m-17-14-fl-Sales-Have-Begun!-(October-2nd)?p=16097#post16097)
Sales Since October 2, 2010
Model Suite Opens February 26, 2011

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Rendering%20Resized246.jpg http://www.downtownkitchener.ca/sites/cityofkitchener/images/photos/centreblockmainaerial.gif

[UrbanWaterloo]

Initial 2008 Renderings:
]http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_Elevation.jpg http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_Board2_Young-and-King.jpg

http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_Board3_Young-St-View.jpg http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_Board4_King-St-West.jpg

http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_Board5_Courtyard.jpg http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_Board1_Main-Image.jpg

--

Andrin’s Proposal and Vision for Kitchener’s Downtown Centre Block
Andrin envisions a dynamic, inspiring, sustainable and engaging redevelopment
concept for the Centre Block, consisting of a mixed-use complex, combining:

A total of up to 401 residential units, offering a range of residential suite types, including lofts, affordable condominiums, larger family oriented dwellings, live/work units and penthouses.
Vibrant new retail spaces along King Street.
A multi-level underground parking structure for up to 714 spaces, with public parking and parking for the retail users at the first level and secure residential parking on the lower level(s).
A boutique hotel and spa in the restored and renovated heritage structures at the corner of Duke and Young Streets.
A public/private courtyard with linkages from Duke Street, Young Street and the underground public parking structure. A linkage from King Street to the courtyard will be provided through a public galleria.
A design that will strive for architectural excellence and be:



Compatible with the existing physical, heritage and social context of the site, including restoration and redevelopment of the existing heritage structures into a boutique hotel and spa;
Responsive to angular planes to minimize shadow impacts;
Address positively the existing City Hall to the west;
Enhance the main street qualities of the three street frontages;
Provide opportunities for outdoor animated uses such as cafés on King Street West; and
Overall safety and security within the site will be an important element of design considerations.


Andrin’s Development Team
For the redevelopment of the Centre Block, Andrin has assembled a team of talented and experienced professionals to work with the City of Kitchener on this collaborative venture. These include; Kimshaw Holdings (A partner in Kaufman Lofts), Quadrangle Architects (The architect for Kaufman Lofts), GSP Planning Group of Kitchener, PMA Sales and Marketing (who sold-out both Kaufman and Bauer Lofts simultaneously). As a developer, Andrin has worked previously with all of the above and we pride ourselves on the effective teamwork of our approach.

Andrin’s Previous Experience
Andrin has extensive experience in downtown redevelopment projects, including: Wellington Terrace in downtown Burlington; Carter Square in Hamilton, Union Village in old downtown Brampton; Neeve Street Housing Development on the banks of the Speed River in downtown Guelph; South Side on Lamar in Dallas, Texas and Kitchener’s Kaufman Lofts. The Kaufman Lofts alone have won several awards including: the Canadian Urban Institute’s prestigious “Brownie” award for “Best Project” (2005) and the Waterloo Regional Home Builders’ Association awards for “Best Re-urbanization Project” and “Project of the Year” (2006).

How does Andrin’s proposal meet the Community’s Vision For Centre Block?
Andrin’s redevelopment of Centre Block will create a main street destination that will create a vibrant people place for all of Kitchener to experience. The landscape courtyard, with pedestrian linkages, will offer a safe and enjoyable environment for a mid-day break, an evening stroll or early morning exercise. Industrial artifacts recalling Kitchener’s past will be placed in the courtyard and gallery to contribute a public art element to the project. A café will spill out onto the new tree-lined promenade on this stretch of King Street, and also into the adjacent sky-lit gallery and will make the perfect meeting place for friends and business colleagues.

What is Andrin’s Proposal for the Two Existing Buildings on the Property?
Andrin proposes to renovate the existing Mayfair Hotel and adjacent building to create an upscale boutique hotel and spa. Andrin has an excellent working relationship with Heritage Kitchener from their experience at Kaufman Lofts and will work closely with the committee to ensure the buildings are revitalized in a manner consistent with heritage by-laws and policies.

When Would Construction Begin on the Proposal, and When Would it End?
Andrin’s proposal anticipates the first phase of the redevelopment, including a portion of the underground parking structure, residential tower, a podium building and King Street retail to begin construction in the fall of 2008. The second phase of the redevelopment, including the balance of the parking structure, residential tower, the second podium building and landscaped courtyard to begin construction in the spring of 2009. Construction on the final phase, the boutique hotel and spa, would start in the spring of 2010. Andrin anticipates that all three phases of the Centre Block redevelopment will be complete by the Spring of 2011.

How Does Andrin’s Proposal Contribute the City’s Green Agenda?
The buildings will be designed to incorporate the highest levels of environmental measures and sustainable development features that are feasible, and be eligible for LEED certification. Some of these features will include a green roof, upgraded building envelopes, enhanced building systems, the use of local building materials and trades, the remediation of the existing site and maximizing the use of local transit systems.

Andrin’s Proposal for Parking
Three levels of parking are incorporated under the landscaped courtyard at the centre of the site. The uppermost level will be dedicated to public parking, with the second and third levels designated for the condominium residents and visitors. Pedestrian access to the public parking level is provided from Young Street, King Street and Duke Street. Vehicles using the public parking area will enter from Duke Street while residents will have a separate entrance off Young Street.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Centre Block deal delayed
Redevelopment negotiations to go into 2008
November 23, 2007
JEFF OUTHIT - RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER

Negotiators will miss a fall deadline to conclude the latest redevelopment proposal for the heart of downtown.

Instead, Centre Block talks between city hall and Andrin Homes will continue into 2008. :(

"There's a fair breadth of discussion going on related to the parking and to other aspects of the project," said city bureaucrat Rod Regier, chair of the city negotiating committee.

"It's a much more complicated exercise than we all imagined," Andrin president Peter Smith said. "A lot of it relates to the phasing of the underground parking."

Both parties said negotiations are not in jeopardy. "We're not fighting with the city here," Smith said. :)

"We mutually agreed to extend the deadline, so we could make sure we did our homework right the first time."

Council is negotiating with Andrin to erect two residential towers, a hotel, public parking, retail space and a landscaped courtyard on city-owned land east of city hall.

The proposal has an estimated value of up to $90 million.

Negotiations were planned to conclude this fall.

Issues still in debate behind closed doors include the value of the city contribution and the city's bid to secure 250 underground parking spaces.

"Everybody is doing their due diligence and being cautious and making sure that once an agreement is in place, it's best for both parties," Mayor Carl Zehr said.

Kitchener council has proposed contributing an undetermined amount of money and just over one hectare of mostly vacant land.

The city spent $9.1 million to buy land and buildings and compensate business owners.

Council selected Andrin as a potential Centre Block partner after inviting redevelopment proposals.

Andrin is redeveloping the Kaufman building into residential lofts in downtown Kitchener.

It has been involved in other redevelopment projects in Ontario and in Texas.

Councillors intend to say yes or no to the Andrin proposal based on the overall use of the site, open space, parking and use of existing buildings.

Smith warned that even if a deal is reached with the city, Andrin has to pre-sell up to 80 per cent of its 12-storey tower to launch a first phase.

"I can't build unless I can sell units," he said.

"We think there's a market there now. We think that downtown Kitchener is kind of taking off."

This is council's third attempt to redevelop the Centre Block site.

The first attempt yielded no suitable developer.

A second proposal to relocate the main public library to the site was abandoned as unpopular.


Centre Block Evaluation Committee Recommendations
http://www.kitchener.ca/Files/Item/item14403_cao-08-010_-_centre_block_evaluation_committee.pdf
Date of Report: June 10, 2008

RECOMMENDATION:
That Andrin Investments Limited be selected as the successful proponent for the redevelopment of Centre Block on the basis of the evaluation and recommendation of the Centre Block Evaluation Committee as set out in Report # CAO-08-010, and on the basis of Andrin’s preliminary design concept as presented to Finance and Corporate Services Committee this date; and further that

Staff be directed to continue negotiations with Andrin Investments Limited on the details of a non-binding Letter of Intent to be used as the basis for the preparation of a development agreement for Centre Block.


Centre Block proposal ready for council
June 14, 2008
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/366826

http://media.therecord.topscms.com/images/f7/30/fb0adf1a4166ab78b2f1987c6e3b.jpeg

City council will be asked Monday to spend another $5.5 million on the redevelopment of a moribund block in the core.

After a year of negotiations with Andrin Investments Ltd., staff will ask council to select the Brampton-based developer for the long-awaited rebuilding of Centre Block.

It will be the latest chapter in the city's nine-year effort to assemble the land -- bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets -- and persuade someone to redevelop it.

"It continues with the huge momentum we have in the downtown core," said Mark Garner, head of the Kitchener Downtown Business Association and a member of the committee that evaluated the Andrin plan.

Included as part of the deal would be a cash infusion of $5.5 million by the city to pay for the cost of building 250 underground-parking spaces for the public, which Kitchener would own.

"There is a need for increased parking in the core," Garner said. "If we are going to get that growth, I think there is a huge need for that."

If councillors approve the deal, a detailed development agreement must be negotiated with Andrin, which could take up to five months. The company must also pre-sell 60 to 70 per cent of the 384 condominiums it plans for the site before construction begins. Work could start next spring.

It would take four years to finish the $90-million project, which includes two condo towers and shorter buildings that would wrap around Duke, Young and King streets. An underground parking garage with 750 spaces and a courtyard are also planned.

A committee of staff and citizens, formed in early 2007, has evaluated the plan and endorsed it.

"I think it is very important to get some high-quality housing in the Kitchener core," said committee member Rick Haldenby, the director of the University of Waterloo school of architecture.

Andrin wants to convert the historic Mayfair building into a boutique hotel and spa. Retail and live-work units are slated for the three-storey buildings fronting Duke, Young and King streets. The renovation of two other historic addresses on King is also part of the plan. "We need a social and cultural mix in the core, and I think this has the potential to draw people to live downtown," Haldenby said.

The city spent $9.1 million to assemble the land and buy out several businesses. The figure includes $7.65 million for the land and businesses and $1.45 million on legal fees, closing costs and consultants.

Under the proposed deal, Andrin will pay the city $3.1 million -- $2.3 million for the vacant land, $100,000 for a strip of land along King Street and $700,000 for the historic buildings at 11 Young St. and at 156-158 King St.

The 250 parking spaces would cost $35,000 each, for a total of $8.75 million, said Dan Chapman, acting city treasurer.

The city has $5.5 million earmarked for the parking from its economic development investment fund. That, coupled with the funds from the sale of land and buildings to Andrin, would be used to pay for the parking spaces.

"So our estimate right now is that we are about $400,000 short in funding, but we are still in negotiations with Andrin," Chapman said.

The city is on the hook to provide 175 parking spaces to Wilfrid Laurier University students and faculty for $20 a month per space. This was part of the deal negotiated to attract the school of social work to the downtown.

Andrin is no stranger to Kitchener. It partnered with Kimshaw Holdings to convert the former Kaufman factory into condominiums. That project cost more than $40 million.

When the city sought proposals for the redevelopment of Centre Block, three companies submitted plans by April 2007 -- Morguard Investments, the Windmill Development Group and Andrin. Within a few weeks Morguard and Windmill withdrew, leaving Andrin as the sole developer to negotiate with the city.


Core developer selected
Kitchener will pursue Centre Block deal with Kaufman Lofts company
June 17, 2008
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/article/368214

City councillors unanimously voted yesterday to pursue a deal with Andrin Investments Limited of Brampton for a $90-million redevelopment of Centre Block, which is bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets.

But it will take up to six years to transform the moribund downtown block into a high-density development producing about $390,000 a year in taxes for city coffers.

"It has been a long process," Mayor Carl Zehr said during yesterday's meeting of the finance committee.

About nine years ago the city started buying land and businesses on Centre Block after learning a pornographic movie house was going to open on the block next to City Hall. In total, the city spent about $9.1 million to buy the land, businesses and pay associated fees for lawyers and consultants.

"This is the type of development we have been looking for and it is now on our table," Zehr said.

The proposal calls for two mid-rise buildings containing about 385 condominiums. A 16-storey building will be constructed at Duke and Young streets, and a 12-storey building off King Street.

A four-storey building will wrap around Duke and Young streets. Another four storey building will be built along that block's now-vacant stretch of King Street.

A public courtyard will be built in the centre of the block, and an underground-parking garage with 750 spaces will be built. The first floor of that garage will have 250 spaces for the public. The city will buy those spaces from Andrin for $8.75 million.

"Quite frankly I am very pleased," Coun. John Gazzola said.

A development agreement must be negotiated between the city and Andrin. Once that is in place Andrin will begin pre-selling condos. If all goes well construction could begin next spring.

Andrin is well know to city officials as that company did the $40 million conversion of the old Kaufman factory into condominiums.

"We really look forward to working with you and creating a great development for our downtown," Coun. Geoff Lorentz said.

"I think this will be a real boost for our downtown core, and it will certainly add a lot of character and excitement to our downtown, which we really need," Lorentz said.

In 1998, the year before the city started buying land on Centre Block, the land and businesses there produced $35,000 in city taxes. Once the proposed development is completed it will produce an estimated $390,000-a-year in city taxes, and another $800,000 annually to be split among Waterloo Region and the two school boards.

"Fundamentally this is going to bring significant new dollars to our community," Coun. Berry Vrbanovic said.

Peter Smith, the head of Andrin Investments spelled out the timelines for city councillors.

The first phase would see the buildings constructed at Duke and Ontario streets, along with part of the underground garage. The second phase includes the buildings on the King Street side of the block, and the rest of the underground-parking garage. The third phase is the conversion of the Mayfair building into a boutique hotel and spa.

"My guess is that would be over a five or six year period, with phase one being about 24 months, phase two being about 24 to 36 months and the Mayfair following after that," Smith said.

Smith said Andrin must pre-sell 70 to 75 per cent of the condos before construction begins.

[UrbanWaterloo]

August 6, 2008 - the day this sign went up:

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/CityCentreSign-August62008-2.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/CityCentreSign-August62008-1.jpg


August 8, 2008 @ the Kitchener Blues Festival:

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/SDC10761.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

Fiscal chill stalls Centre Block
October 29, 2008
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/435820

The worldwide financial crisis will delay by six to eight months the start of the long-awaited redevelopment of downtown Kitchener's Centre Block.

Peter Smith of Andrin Homes, the Brampton-based developer behind the $90-million plan, said the company will launch a campaign after next June to pre-sell the approximately 385 condominiums planned for the site.

"The market is sluggish right now, we all know that, not just in Kitchener but throughout the area," Smith said in a telephone interview yesterday.

Plans call for four new buildings on the block bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets. Two mid-rise buildings, one on King and one at Young and Duke streets, will house most of the condominiums.

A park and an underground parking garage with 750 spaces are also planned. Low-rise buildings will front King Street and wrap around Young and Duke streets.

Smith expects the economy to pick up after the second quarter next year, and the company sees little point trying to sell any units before then.

"We would try to time our launch with a more positive outlook in the market," Smith said.

"You don't want to go out at a time when there is a lack of confidence because that kind of makes the project stale."

For years, the city has tried to redevelop the Centre Block properties, which it started buying up in the late 1990s after learning a pornographic movie house was to open.

In April 2007, the city announced Andrin Homes would get the nod for the redevelopment of the block.

At that time, it was thought construction might start by the spring of this year.

Then in June this year, councillors voted unanimously to pursue a development agreement with Andrin Homes, which was to be in place by the end of this month.

At that time, it was said construction could begin in the spring of 2009.

But negotiations have been delayed, and the development agreement will not be ready until Dec. 10.

On Monday, councillors voted to push back the deadline.

Lawyers for the city and developer simply need more time to agree on the details, Smith said.

"We are not having any issues with the city at this point at all," Smith said.

Andrin is very familiar with the condominium market in downtown Kitchener.

It was behind the award- winning $40 million conversion of the Kaufman factory into condos.

As part of the Centre Block project, Andrin set up a website -- livingatcitycentre.ca -- where potential buyers can register for more information.

"Registrations are not as great as we expected, but given the economic times, it's not a surprise," Smith said.

Rod Regier, the city's director of economic development, said the slumping economy may have some impact on the downtown project.

But Kitchener's economy remains fairly strong, he said, and the real estate market is more stable in this area than in many other cities.

"I would anticipate that what's happening now might delay the start by a marginal amount of time," Regier said.

"The fact that the real estate market is slowing down a little bit, I don't think it really throws a big question market over the project."

[UrbanWaterloo]

Heritage group fears for future of Mayfair Hotel
November 11, 2008
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/article/442470

City councillors will be asked this month to protect two old buildings in the core -- the former Mayfair Hotel and the former Hymmen Hardware building.

The city owns both buildings, and they are part of the plans to redevelop Centre Block.

But Heritage Kitchener wants the buildings designated under the Ontario Heritage Act to make sure the developer can't tear them down without permission.

"To me there is no reason why they should turn it down," Kerry Kirby, the outgoing chair of Heritage Kitchener, said of the designation.

"I am expecting that they will approve it."

The heritage committee's request to designate the Mayfair, at 11 Young St., and the old Hymmen building at 156-158 King St. W., will be made to council Nov. 24.

Brampton-based Andrin Ltd., the company chosen to redevelop the land next to city hall, plans to turn the buildings into a boutique hotel and spa in the third and final phase of a proposed $90-million project.

Heritage Kitchener worries about the lack of guarantees the buildings won't be demolished.

Because of the economic climate and delays in the development, the heritage committee is afraid the two buildings won't be renovated and reused in the long run.

"Our biggest concern is if they are not designated there are no guarantees that they will be preserved while construction is going on," Kirby said.

The city and Andrin are scheduled to sign a development agreement in early December.

The company wants to start a marketing campaign in mid-2009 -- before construction starts -- to pre-sell more than 70 per cent of the 385 condos planned for the site.

As work progresses, the city is to transfer ownership of the lands and buildings to Andrin.

Ownership of the Mayfair Hotel and 156-158 King Street West would likely be transferred at the end of the second phase.

The first phase calls for an underground parking garage, a building with condos and a smaller building with retail and live-work spaces. These buildings would be on or near King Street.

The second phase involves a condo building at Duke and Young streets and a shorter building wrapping around both streets.

A small park would be at the centre of the block.

The last phase would be to renovate the Mayfair and 156-158 King Street West to create a boutique hotel and spa.

"If they had made it the first or second phase, I think the (heritage) committee would have felt a lot more comfortable," Kirby said.

A document that was circulated among potential developers when the city called for Centre Block proposals two years ago said that any development should retain the buildings in their entirety.

The booklet said both the Mayfair and 156-158 King Street West were on a heritage registry, the first step toward protecting old buildings.

"The Ontario Heritage Act affords no special protection to non-designated properties listed on the Heritage Registry, other than extending the period for municipalities to process demolition applications made for such properties from 10 business days to 60 business days," said the city booklet, called Kitchener's Centre Block Opportunity.

If councillors agree to designate the buildings under the Ontario Heritage Act, the city can refuse to issue demolition permits.


City protects two heritage sites
November 25, 2008
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/article/449292

Two old buildings on a high-profile downtown property are now protected under the Ontario Heritage Act and cannot be demolished without the city's support.

Councillors voted unanimously last night to protect the exterior of the Mayfair Hotel, at Young and King streets, along with the former Hymmen Hardware building at 156-158 King St. West.

Both buildings are owned by the city, which is negotiating an agreement with Brampton-based Andrin Homes to redevelop Centre Block.

Heritage Kitchener was concerned about the future of the buildings and called for the designation under the Ontario Heritage Act.

Council agreed with little discussion.

"I think it means a lot for our community," said Coun. John Gazzola, council's representative on Heritage Kitchener.

The Mayfair Hotel at 11 Young St. was built in 1905 by Edward Lippert. A furniture store and undertaker were originally in the building. Hymmen Hardware opened in 1906.

Rod Regier, the city's director of economic development, said Andrin Homes had no objections to the heritage designations.

"Andrin has known from the outset that the buildings are important to the city," Regier said.

The city has said it wants the two buildings included in the proposed redevelopment of the city-owned land.

Andrin worked with Heritage Kitchener when the developer spent more than $40 million to convert the former Kaufman factory, which is also a heritage building, into condominiums.

The city and Andrin are scheduled to conclude a development agreement by Dec. 10.

The company has said it want to begin marketing the condos in mid-2009.

It wants to pre-sell about 80 per cent of the 385 units before starting construction on the $90-million project.


Save the buildings
November 26, 2008
THE RECORD
http://news.therecord.com/article/449826

Kitchener council's decision to designate two buildings on the Centre Block as heritage sites is particularly significant because the city doesn't have a great reputation for saving older buildings.

At its meeting this week, council decided to protect the Mayfair Hotel at Young and King streets and the former Hymmen Hardware building at 156-158 King St. W. Under the Ontario Heritage Act, the two buildings now cannot be demolished without council's approval. Good for council.

Heritage Kitchener requested the designation because it was concerned about the future of the buildings. The two properties are owned by the city. They are on the block beside City Hall that council wants to develop. At present, it is trying to reach an agreement with Andrin Homes of Brampton to build a residential complex on the block.

The heritage designation is important. Nevertheless, it alone does not mean the buildings will be saved. As the councillors know, a similar heritage designation did not save the former Forsyth shirt factory, which was also on the Centre Block.

After it acquired the Forsyth building, the city let it deteriorate until the chief building official issued a demolition order. The building came down in 2006, earning the city the condemnation of the Heritage Canada Foundation.

Let's hope the city does a better job of protecting the Mayfair Hotel and the Hymmen building. Both buildings were constructed in the early years of the 20th century. The buildings deserve a better fate than the Forsyth building received.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Region's economic woes slow Centre Block start
February 27, 2009
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/article/495088

Andrin Homes says it is still committed to redeveloping a key parcel of land next to City Hall.

But construction won't start until next year at the earliest -- a full decade after the city bought up the downtown land and almost two years after Andrin was selected to develop it.

Andrin plans a $95-million redevelopment that includes 385 condos in four new buildings, as well as underground parking and a parkette.

The launch of a marketing campaign has been pushed back to this fall, and no construction will begin until 80 per cent of the condominiums have been sold.

While the current recession batters housing starts and sales, the market for new condominiums will return, said Peter Smith, president of Brampton-based Andrin Homes. "We are still committed to it 100 per cent," Smith said in an interview.

Late next month, city councillors will be asked to approve an agreement of purchase and sale for the land on Centre Block, on the western half of the block bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets.

The agreement won't include firm deadlines for the start of construction. A separate document, called a development agreement, which details how and when the work is to proceed, will not be ready for approval next month.

"We have had to split the agreement of purchase and sale and the development agreement because the development agreement requires information we don't have," Anne Marchildron of Andrin Homes said in an interview.

Planning for the Centre Block project has not reached the stage where a development agreement can be signed.

"So we can't do a construction contract for an underground garage when we don't have drawings to show what that underground garage looks like," Marchildron said.

"So that's the reason the development agreement has been separated from the agreement of purchase and sale."

The City of Kitchener is selling 2.3 acres and two buildings on Centre Block to Andrin for $3.1 million. Marketing was supposed to begin this summer but has been delayed.

"There is nothing in the market to indicate right now there is any value in putting any money into marketing any project," Marchildron said.

Andrin is concerned about the region's economic reliance on automotive manufacturing, she said. The developer is closely following news concerning a bailout of the Big Three automakers.

"Until we have some idea that there is something going forward . . . why would you go into an area where it's so dependent (on auto manufacturing)?" Marchildron asked. "Listen, if those three go down, there could be some big ripple effects."

The City of Kitchener started buying properties and businesses on Centre Block about 10 years ago, after learning a pornographic movie house was set to open in one building.

By 2000, the city had paid about $9.1 million to assemble the land and look after other costs. Interest charges on that debt have increased the total cost to about $13 million. The longer the city retains ownership of the land, the longer it must carry the costs.

For years, the city worked to redevelop the land, and once considered a new central library for the site. Councillors killed that idea after a public outcry at the $65-million price tag.

Nearly two years ago, Andrin was selected as the developer for Centre Block. A development agreement was expected in September 2008, then in December. There is now no deadline for an agreement.

"We may not be taking anything to the market today, because one wonders whether it might be better to hold off for six to nine months before going to the market," Smith said.

"But we are certainly not slowing down on taking things through the process."

[UrbanWaterloo]

Centre Block Agreement of Purchase and Sale

Report: http://www.kitchener.ca/Files/Item/item16149_cao-09-021_-_centre_block_agmt_of_purchase___sale.pdf
Attachment: http://www.kitchener.ca/Files/Item/item16149_cao-09-021_-_centre_block_agmt_of_purchase___sale_-_attachment.pdf

RECOMMENDATION
The Agreement of Purchase and Sale between the City and Andrin Investments Limited for the Centre Block lands, attached to Report CAO-09-21, be tabled and referred to the April 20, 2009 Finance and Corporate Services Committee for discussion.

For information.

BACKGROUND:
On June 16, 2008, Council selected Andrin Investments Limited as the developer for Centre Block. Andrin’s proposal met all of the criteria set out in the Centre Block Terms of Reference adopted by Council in October 2006. The company proposed a high-quality mixed-use development which includes diverse residential development, ground floor retail, combinations of safe, connected public and private outdoor spaces. They have proposed the allocation of 250 parking spaces in a portion of the underground structure to be retained in City ownership at a competitive cost.

The project sets a new standard for architecture and urban design for a high density residential project in the Waterloo Region. It achieves maximum density on the site and makes a significant contribution to Kitchener’s downtown as a vibrant urban place by attracting new residents and contributing to an improved balance between employment and residents in the downtown. The proposal addresses the City's requirement for Leadership in Energy and Environmental design (LEED), supporting Kitchener's Environmental Strategy. It also advances the objectives of the City’s Economic Development Strategy, Economic Development Investment Fund by creating a new magnet for talented young people and investment, strengthening the brand of Downtown Kitchener.

The developer has a track record of high quality reurbanization projects in Kitchener, the Greater Toronto Area and in the United States. They have the financial, technical and marketing expertise to successfully build this project.

Andrin’s proposal was subjected to a rigorous public consultation process. Public opinion gathered through this process was strongly supportive of the project. The specific feedback from the public was utilized in discussions with Andrin regarding the details of their proposal and has resulted in changes to the proposal that improve its ability to achieve the City’s objectives.

REPORT:
In October 2008, staff was directed to complete negotiation of the purchase and sale and development agreements with Andrin. The attached Agreement of Purchase and Sale has been negotiated between the parties and is being tabled with Council for its discussion at the April 20, 2009 Finance Committee and subsequent ratification, if approved.

The Agreement of Purchase and Sale will be discussed with the Kitchener Business Improvement Area Board of Directors, the Downtown Advisory Committee and the Economic Development Advisory Committee.

FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS:
The attached Agreement of Purchase and Sale is a binding commitment between the City of Kitchener and Andrin Investments Limited, to sell the lands known as Centre Block for $3.1 million and to purchase
an underground parking structure of between 200 and 250 spaces at a rate of $35,000 per space, subject to the completion of mutually agreed development agreements outlining the final built form of the project.


Centre Block land to sell for $3.1M
But it may take 3 years for construction to begin
April 07, 2009
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/516571

It could be up to three and a half years before construction begins on an ambitious redevelopment of city-owned lands in the core.

The Brampton based developer Andrin Limited and the City of Kitchener tabled an agreement of purchase and sale yesterday for 2.6 acres of land on the western half of the block bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets.

"This agreement solidifies the future of Centre Block," Rod Regier, the city's director of economic development, said in a presentation to city council.

"The Centre Block project is one of the most ambitious residential projects in Waterloo Region. It sets a new standard for reurbanization, environmental design and architectural excellence," Regier said.

The city will sell the land for $3.1 million. The agreement is a milestone in the 10 -year-long effort to bring new life into the city-owned lands on the block.

So far, the city has paid out about $13 million to buy the lands, buildings, businesses, and pay associated fees and interest costs.

The 32-page agreement is available on the city's website and will be circulated among several advisory committees in the coming weeks before coming back to city councillors for approval on April 20.

But the details of the building designs, plans for the underground parking garage and construction contracts will not be nailed down until the city and Andrin sign what's called a development agreement.

That should be done by the end of November.

"Just so people understand, in the next week there is not going to be a big new building there," Coun. John Gazzola said.

"So what kind of ballpark time would we be looking at?"¾ Gazzola asked.

The time will largely be a function of the strength of the marketplace, Regier said.

"We have outlined a maximum time it can take, which is 36 months from the completion of a development agreement," Regier said of the project's first phase.

The developer has proposed a $90-million redevelopment that includes two medium rise buildings with about 380 condominiums, underground parking, retail and mixed use space along the streets and the renovation of the Mayfair Hotel and 156-158 King St. West into a boutique hotel and spa.

The development will be done in three phases. The first phase will front on Young and Duke streets and see the underground parking garage constructed.

Phase 1 also includes a building with about 225 condominiums.

Under the proposed agreement of purchase and sale, Andrin must deposit $2 with the city and begin construction within three years of Nov. 30, 2009 or within three years of the signing of a development agreement.

The deadline for the start of construction of Phase 2, which fronts on King Street, is five years from the signing of a development agreement, or five years from Nov. 30, 2009.

The Mayfair Hotel and 156-158 King St. West will be transferred to Andrin within six years from Nov. 30 when the first two phases are complete.

Peter Smith, the president of Andrin, said his company remains committed to the project and is confident the market for new housing will return.

And when the market returns, he said downtown Kitchener is the ideal place to be building new condominiums.

But Smith also counselled patience, saying about 80 per cent of the units must be pre-sold before work begins on any phase.

Smith's company bought the old Kaufman factory and transformed the building into condominiums.

"It does take time, all these deals take time," Smith said.

"I should remind you that we purchased the Kaufman rubber factory in 2002, we started construction in 2006, and we are now out of there," Smith said.

One public delegation appeared before city councillors yesterday urging caution.

Jack Redmond, a retired developer, real estate agent and surveyor, said the agreement needs to be more specific about what lands will be transferred to the developer.

Redmond also said it is very unusual for the city to pay the legal costs for the transaction, something the developer normally covers.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Speed up Centre Block, city told
April 16, 2009
Terry Pender, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/article/521166

http://media.therecord.topscms.com/images/9d/f6/373197c34b64abae4d5470789284.jpeg

Some downtown property owners are worried it could take up to 10 years to see a strategic corner redeveloped.

Bernie Nimer, a developer who owns the building at 179 King St. W., said landlords in the core support the city's proposed agreement with Andrin Ltd. for the redevelopment of the western half of Centre Block.

Nimer said the corner of King and Young streets, which includes the Mayfair Hotel and 156-158 King St. W., should be redeveloped sooner than proposed in the agreement.

The buildings have been vacant for years, he said, and it doesn't make sense to leave them like that after the city spends about $8 million on King Street upgrades this year.

Some downtown property owners are willing to help Andrin redevelop the corner sooner, he said.

"I think we have beat this horse to death," Nimer said of the years of work the city has devoted to redeveloping Centre Block.

City officials met with some members of their economic development advisory committee yesterday to get their reaction to the proposed agreement of purchase and sale that will see the city sell 2.6 acres on the block bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets for $3.1 million.

"We all agree these are strategic properties on King Street and we would all like to see them develop sooner rather than later," said Rod Regier, the city's director of economic development. "This is a really important location for the city."

The first phase includes an underground parking garage, about 220 condominiums in a building at Young and Duke streets and a shorter building that wraps around both streets. The second phase includes about 165 condominiums on King in a mixed-use building.

The final phase is the renovation and restoration of the Mayfair Hotel and the building next door into a boutique hotel and spa. The total value of the project is estimated at $90 million.

Ian Cook, of Cook Homes, said the second phase of the project should be done before anything else. It would bring a finished product to King Street faster, Cook said.

"I can tell you that is an active debate within Andrin," Regier said.

Reversing the order of the phasing is complicated by the need to build the underground parking garage first.

Under the proposed agreement, it could take up to 3 1/2 years before construction starts on the first phase.

Mark Bingeman, general manager of Bingemans, said the proposed agreement should see the city compensated for the years of work it has put into the site in case the developer pulls out.

Brian Bennet, a consultant on the advisory committee, said the city should set a deadline for Andrin to build a presentation centre and model suite. That could cost up to $500,000 and demonstrate Andrin's commitment to the project, he said.

The deal will be reviewed by the city's finance committee on April 20. Council is scheduled to ratify the agreement on April 27.


Centre Block land sold to Andrin for condos
Construction may take until 2012 to begin
June 16, 2009
Jeff Outhit, RECORD STAFF - KITCHENER
http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/553998

Kitchener council will sell a hectare of downtown land to a developer who plans condominiums next to City Hall.

But construction may not launch until 2012, and there may not even be a sales office on site until August 2010.

Council approved the Centre Block deal last night in a 5-2 vote. Coun. John Gazzola and Coun. John Smola were opposed.

"I really feel our taxpayers deserve a better deal," Gazzola said.

Other councillors say it's time to move on and try to develop the site on King Street, just east of City Hall.

"Although this may not be the perfect deal . . . we need to give it a chance," Coun. Berry Vrbanovic said.

"It may not be perfect, but it is a fair deal," Mayor Carl Zehr said.

Some highlights:

If construction launches by Nov. 2012, council will sell the lands to Andrin Limited for $3.1 million. That's after council spent about $13 million over nine years to assemble the lands and buildings.

Council plans to spend up to $8.8 million more, to buy up to 250 underground parking spaces.

Council can pull the Mayfair Hotel from the project if someone else can be found to redevelop it sooner.

Andrin has indicated it must pre-sell about 180 units before constructing a first phase.

The proposed redevelopment ultimately includes about 380 condominiums, underground parking, and retail space along the streets.

Development and construction agreements are still to be finalized.


Number of residents downtown has grown 31 per cent
November 17, 2009
By Terry Pender, Record staff
http://news.therecord.com/article/630480
...
Coun. John Gazzola wanted to know what is happening with Centre Block—2.6 acres of land the city has spent about $13 million to assemble. It is bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets.

“We have not heard anything about that for quite a while,” Gazzola said.

Rod Regier, the city’s director of economic investment, said a development agreement with Andrin Homes should be ready for approval soon.

Brampton-based Andrin has proposed a $90 million redevelopment of the block, which includes condominiums, mixed-use buildings, underground parking and a small park. A development agreement is supposed to be in place by the end of the month.

“We will be bringing a draft of that agreement to council in the next short little while,” Regier said. “We have been meeting steadily over the last little while and progress is being made.”
...


Carl Zehr claims record as Kitchener’s longest serving mayor
December 06, 2009
By Terry Pender, Record staff
http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/640436
...
A development agreement between the city and Brampton-based Andrin Homes is expected to be made public today, calling for the construction of 385 condos on Centre Block, which is bordered by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets.
...

[Spokes]

City and developer near deal for long-awaited project

December 17, 2009
By Terry Pender, Record staff

KITCHENER—A Brampton-based developer says he will sign an agreement next month with the City of Kitchener for a project that will add 385 condos to the core.

Peter Smith, president of Andrin Homes, said an agreement should be in place by mid-January for the redevelopment of the city-owned half of Centre Block, which is bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets.

“We have agreed in principle and most of the document has been finalized,” Smith said. “Lawyers are now crossing t’s and dotting i’s but there are no issues.”

Next spring the company plans to build a sales office on the block fronting on King Street West.

“We intend to start our sales in August 2010,” Smith said. “We are moving forward, we are encouraged by everything.”

There are some changes to the phasing of the project.

The first phase will now include a building with 235 condominiums and face Duke Street. Phase 2 will include a building with about 150 units on King Street. The last phase is a boutique hotel in what is now the Mayfair Hotel and neighbouring buildings. An underground parking garage below a landscaped courtyard and live-work spaces will also be constructed.

The entire project is worth an estimated $95 million. Once it gets going the redevelopment of Centre Block will be among the largest residential-mixed use projects in the region.

Some property owners in the core do not like the timing for the redevelopment of the heritage buildings at King and Young Streets. They would like to see that part of the development done sooner.

“We have been working very closely with the (Kitchener Downtown Business Improvement Area) and some local people from Kitchener to see how we could advance the boutique hotel and if possible even push it forward,” Smith said.

“There is considerable interest on the part of some people in Kitchener to work with us in a partnership on that,” Smith said of the boutique hotel.

Mark Garner, executive director of the business improvement area, said there is a proposal to get the Mayfair redeveloped much sooner than originally planned.

“I think we’ve got a viable alternative,” Garner said.

A detailed architectural assessment of the Mayfair is being done. That information will be used to develop detailed designs for the renovations.

“I think we are going down the path of a boutique hotel,” Garner said. “The sooner we can start it, the better.”

Garner, city officials, Andrin and some downtown property owners have been talking for months to refine the development proposal and its staging. City councillors voted in April to approve the agreement of purchase and sale with Andrin.

Rod Regier, the city’s director of economic development, said Andrin wants to find someone else to run the boutique hotel and it has looked at stunningly successful renovations of two famous hotels on Queen Street West in Toronto.

“I know people have looked at the Gladstone and they have looked at the Drake,” Regier said. “The concept of a boutique hotel has been very successful in a number of cities.”

There is a multi-use pathway and express buses connecting downtown Kitchener and the research and technology park on the University of Waterloo’s north campus. It’s the kind of connection that’s caught the attention of the marketing department at the City of Kitchener.

The City of Kitchener is targeting young high-tech workers in its marketing campaign for downtown living. It’s paying dividends, as many high-tech workers bought space in the Kaufman Lofts. Open Text recently announced it is constructing another building in the research park and hiring another 800 people.

“The growing number of knowledge workers in high-tech bodes well for this product,” Regier said.

The successful condo developments on Mansion Street and at the farmers’ market on King Street East help the city in its marketing of downtown to both developers and buyers.

“I get the sense that interest is building in condos downtown,” Regier said.

Prompted by word that a pornographic movie house was set to open there, the city bought several buildings and businesses clustered around the western half of Centre Block. By 2000 it had 2.6 acres of land and several buildings. So far the city has spent about $13 million.

City councillors voted to sell that land to Andrin for $3.1 million. The city will also provide $5.5 million to help pay for the construction of the three-level underground parking garage, the first level of which will be for public parking.

tpender@therecord.com

[Spokes]

Is this one still proposed or has it been officially approved yet?

[RangersFan]

I have a question, what is the expected floor count and height of the two towers? Here on wonderfulwaterloo listed as 59m and 52m 16 fl and 14 respectively. On skyscraper forums its listed as 67m and 46m 18fl and 12fl respectively. Looking at the render the one tower looks significantly taller than the other, does anyone know for sure? I wonder why they are delaying setting up a sales office, they should really get the ball rolling on this before people really loose interest.

[UrbanWaterloo]

It was changed to 16 & 14 last June.

[RangersFan]

Awe thats kind of disappointing, as this would have become Kitchener's tallest building.

[Spokes]

What? Really? I thought 22 Frederick would be taller. There's got to be other residential buildings that are >18 floors tall.

[RangersFan]

Well I was just going by this diagram, but it is not offical by any stretch of the imagination.
http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?cityID=323

[Spokes]

Ya I'm not sure. None the less, your original sentiment was right. This is disappointing. I would have liked to see more than a 2 floor difference between the towers. at least the number of units stayed the same though. Building the sales office in the spring and starting sales in August is ridiculous though. Get the office done ASAP so you can take advantage of the entire spring/summer to sell.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Unfortunately democracy is the culprit to blame. During public consultations some stated the towers were too tall, others however commented they were too short. To demonstrate they took these comments into account, the developer compromised and shortened the 18-storey tower to 16; and raised the 12-storey tower to 14. Personally I'm in the camp which believes the towers should have increased to another set of higher numbers (say 25 & 15; or 30 & 20). What we need to do is grow this camp and make sure the next time a public development like this happens, our pro-height side overwhelms the debate (you could say this is one of the possible purposes of WW --> a local lobby group).

[Spokes]

Do you think that 25/15 or 30/20 were options? While I'd love to see that, I don't know if it would have worked out. Maybe in a development or two, but for one of the first high rise developments in the core, they'd probably want to play it a bit safer.

Imagine Centre Block 25/15 or 30/20 floors high though. WOW!

[RangersFan]

I wish I would have been there, I really think thats what is part of the identity problem we have in KW(not that its a huge problem). We don't have that reconizable skyline that other cities have, and here we had an opportunity to really add what could be the centerpiece to the puzzle. Not that 16 stories is bad, it will still be one of the taller buildings in the area. Like whats wrong with height in downtown? If people don't like it it move to the suburbs, downtowns should have density and a thriving urban environment. I think we should form a lobby group to support future developments.

yea WOW is right 30/20 with the same design would have been stunning.

[jay]

I agree the sales office should be ready for spring. Starting sales in Aug is stupid.

[Spokes]

I wish I would have been there, I really think thats what is part of the identity problem we have in KW(not that its a huge problem). We don't have that reconizable skyline that other cities have, and here we had an opportunity to really add what could be the centerpiece to the puzzle. Not that 16 stories is bad, it will still be one of the taller buildings in the area. Like whats wrong with height in downtown? If people don't like it it move to the suburbs, downtowns should have density and a thriving urban environment. I think we should form a lobby group to support future developments.

yea WOW is right 30/20 with the same design would have been stunning.

Is it people/council being against height? Or is it developers not willing to build height at this point? Like I said, I think that for one of the first high rise developments in the core, they'd want to play it safe. They wouldn't want to have a 25 floor building for sale and not be able to sell out. They'd end up just sitting on it then which isn't good.

Now if there were other similar developments in Downtown Kitchener that sold quickly and they knew there was a market, they could go higher than the 18 floor starting point. Even in Waterloo, Bauer (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/40-Bauer-Buildings-|-57-m-|-15-4-2-fl-|-U-C) is what, 15 floors? We're only now seeing 25 floors at King and University (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/32-247-King-St-N-|-80-m-|-25-fl-|-Demolition), and those are going to be rentals.

Just my two cents. Or was Andrin originally wanting to go higher than 18 floors?

[UrbanWaterloo]

No 25/15 or 30/20 were never official options. They're just something I would liked to have seen happen on such a central block; one where there's no real 'sunlight-blocking' issues. I agree from the developer's POV, the 18/12 (now 16/14) combo is much more realistic. I'm still hoping they pull another Kaufman or Bauer though, both of which were bumped higher due to strong sales, starting at 4 and 12 floors and increasing by 2 and 3 floors respectively.

[UrbanWaterloo]

I wish I would have been there, I really think thats what is part of the identity problem we have in KW(not that its a huge problem). We don't have that reconizable skyline that other cities have, and here we had an opportunity to really add what could be the centerpiece to the puzzle. Not that 16 stories is bad, it will still be one of the taller buildings in the area. Like whats wrong with height in downtown? If people don't like it it move to the suburbs, downtowns should have density and a thriving urban environment.

Agreed, with emphasis.


I think we should form a lobby group to support future developments.

Agreed again. Now there are many possibilities for what WW will end up becoming: (1) will we just be a simple hobbyist website, waiting to get your latest 'urban fix', (2) will we be an historical site, something to look back on in the year 2030 and go wow that's what Centre Block looked like before those condos went up. Imagine now being able to have 100's of photos of what the City Hall block used to look like in the 1980's, etc.. (3) will we become more politically active: making sure our generally pro-height/development voices get heard against the NIMBY's., or (4) will we be all of the above and then some. Only time will tell and will be based in large part how the membership grows here.


Is it people/council being against height? Or is it developers not willing to build height at this point?
...
Or was Andrin originally wanting to go higher than 18 floors?

I don't know if they were originally planning to go any higher than 18 floors, but at the very least they were willing to go that high. It was the people who were mixed on the height, resulting in one lower and one higher proposed building.

Now remember a democracy is only as good as the number of people who actually get out and voice their opinions. You don't vote, you don't send in your comment cards, then you don't get a say. From a political point of view I guess it is sad so few people make their voices heard. NIMBY groups have known this and have been quite good at getting together opposition at various times, making just a few hundred people seem like it's everybody. What we need is a few hundred pro-height members to also make their opinions count.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Now unfortunately (from my POV) I have two other changes to report on from the initial proposal regarding the bases.

1) King Street Tower: the base has been reduced from 6 to 4 floors (think Mayfair to now Weber Chambers height)

2) Duke Street Tower: the base has been chopped off a bit at both ends.

The 2nd point was done at the pressure of the 'pro-parks-everywhere' lobby to increase the walking paths aspect of the development. IMO, this was the wrong move: this is an urban city block and the buildings should have a strong presence with the street = little to no gaps. It's even more ridiculous when you consider we already have a great public space next door in the Civic Square, and two blocks over is Victoria Park. Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of investing in our parks, just I also happen to be in favour of investing in our urban city fabric too.

Side-by-Side comparisons. Old 18/12 render on the left, new 16/14 on the right.
http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_Board1_Main-Image.jpg http://www.kitchener.ca/images/centre_block_main_aerial_image.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

Now I don't want to sound overly negative on what is still an amazing development proposal for our city. It just frustrates me that during the public consultations we went from what IMO was an 'A' proposal, to a slightly watered down 'A-' proposal which is now before us. If/when there's another opportunity for public consultations in the future, we need to be ready to push an initial 'A' proposal to an 'A+' proposal from an urban perspective (ie. that 25-storey+ signature tower).

[RangersFan]

Well I deffinetly agree, we need to voice our opinion in future public consultations. I am also annoyed with the delay in possible construction. I like this development to such a degree that I am considering buying a condo there but with the delays it just make its way too far into the future, with the amount this has been dragged through the mud you would think theyd be hauling butt just to save face with the public to get this development on the road.

[Spokes]

I don't know if they were originally planning to go any higher than 18 floors, but at the very least they were willing to go that high. It was the people who were mixed on the height, resulting in one lower and one higher proposed building.

Now remember a democracy is only as good as the number of people who actually get out and voice their opinions. You don't vote, you don't send in your comment cards, then you don't get a say. From a political point of view I guess it is sad so few people make their voices heard. NIMBY groups have known this and have been quite good at getting together opposition at various times, making just a few hundred people seem like it's everybody. What we need is a few hundred pro-height members to also make their opinions count.

WW should help with that too.

And lets not forget they don't necessarily have to start as pro-height urban enthusiasts. When I first started reading about this and getting involved a little more than two years ago, I didn't know much, or have strong opinions. Now look at me. This site will help educate people too. The pro-height base will grow with time.

[Spokes]

Now unfortunately (from my POV) I have two other changes to report on from the initial proposal regarding the bases.

1) King Street Tower: the base has been reduced from 6 to 4 floors (think Mayfair to now Weber Chambers height)

2) Duke Street Tower: the base has been chopped off a bit at both ends.

The 2nd point was done at the pressure of the 'pro-parks-everywhere' lobby to increase the walking paths aspect of the development. IMO, this was the wrong move: this is an urban city block and the buildings should have a strong presence with the street = little to no gaps. It's even more ridiculous when you consider we already have a great public space next door in the Civic Square, and two blocks over is Victoria Park. Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of investing in our parks, just I also happen to be in favour of investing in our urban city fabric too.


Part of this too is because by and large the people who voice their opinions are still stuck in a small town mindset. They have failed to grasp the fact that we are an up and coming city or group of cities. This is the first, and in my opinion, biggest hurdle to overcome.

[Spokes]

Well I deffinetly agree, we need to voice our opinion in future public consultations. I am also annoyed with the delay in possible construction. I like this development to such a degree that I am considering buying a condo there but with the delays it just make its way too far into the future, with the amount this has been dragged through the mud you would think theyd be hauling butt just to save face with the public to get this development on the road.

I think they're able to get away with dragging ass because they're blaming it on the economy. Now I'm not saying at all that the economy hurt our region hard. Particularly Kitchener. But recent reports (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/36-Housing-Market) show that the Housing Market was quite strong this year.

[jay]

This feet dragging will hurt them in sales I think. Especially if other projects start before this. 144 Park is taking sales and if Barrel Yards starts before this that will also take sales..

[Spokes]

This feet dragging will hurt them in sales I think. Especially if other projects start before this. 144 Park is taking sales and if Barrel Yards starts before this that will also take sales..

I'm not sure. 144 Park and Centre Block are two different residents, two different buyers. So I don't think they're competing for customers. And Barrel Yards, IF they get going this year, they're going to be doing the apartments first, not the condos.
I agree with you that dragging their feet will hurt them, but not because of other projects.

[UrbanWaterloo]

City gives nod to developer for Centre Block
By Terry Pender, Record staff - February 23, 2010
http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/674789

KITCHENER — City councillors reached an important milestone Monday in their decade-long effort to redevelop a strategic parcel of land next to City Hall.

During a closed-door meeting councillors gave their final authorization to staff for an agreement between the City of Kitchener and Brampton-based Andrin Homes for the redevelopment of Centre Block with 385 condominiums, four new buildings, underground parking, a boutique hotel-spa and a parkette.

“It has been a long time coming, obviously,” Mayor Carl Zehr said.

By 2000 the city had purchased almost all of the properties and buildings that wrapped around the western half of the block, which is bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets. So far the city has spent about $13 million on all of the costs associated with buying the land, buildings and businesses.

Andrin gets the 2.6 acre site and two heritage buildings for $3.1 million.

“One of the biggest lessons is one has to be patient,” Zehr said. “Whenever you are dealing with developable lands it takes time to go through the process and you are, quite often, at the mercy of the market place and economy.”

It has taken years of dedicated work to get this development agreement in place. Earlier efforts to attract a developer did not succeed and plans for a new central library there collapsed in the face of an outcry from some residents about the costs.

“My comment throughout all of this was: ‘We will wait until the time is right,’ and there was no rush,” Zehr said. “We shouldn’t be rushing forward with a proposal that isn’t right.”

He has held the mayor’s chair for 13 years and Centre Block has been an issue for at least 10 of those years. Looking back on it now, Zehr said the city never wanted to get into the business of assembling the land and attracting a developer.

It started when someone called Zehr saying a cinema for porno flicks was about to open on the second floor of a building along the King Street stretch of Centre Block. City councillors quickly rezoned the land to prevent that from happening, and the owner sued. The settlement had the city buy the building and compensate the owner for the loss of his business.

He said the entire council deserves credit for taking the long-term view of Centre Block.

Under the terms of the development agreement, Andrin must take out building permits for the first phase by Nov. 30, 2012. The first phase includes an underground-parking garage, a condo building with about 240 units and a three storey building. Those buildings will be on King Street.

The second phase calls for another condo building, with about 140 units, at the corner of Young and Duke streets with another building that wraps around that section of the block.

The third and final phase includes the development of the Mayfair Hotel into a boutique hotel-spa. The city, development and some downtown property owners are looking for ways to advance the redevelopment of that corner.

“It’s exciting,” Rod Regier, the city’s director of economic development, said of the agreement.

“These are really long-term projects, they are large, they are complex, they are multi-million dollar projects,” he said.

The cost of the entire development is estimated at $95 million. Regier credits the city’s work to attract the University of Waterloo school of pharmacy and the Wilfrid Laurier University faculty of social work to downtown Kitchener in helping to secure Andrin as a developer for Centre Block.

“I think things are coming together right now, the real estate market in this region remains strong and people are excited about the downtown,” he said.

The city and the developer are hoping to repeat earlier successes with downtown condos. Andrin redeveloped the old Kaufman factory on King Street West into condos that sold quickly. Lofts on Mansion and the condos at the Kitchener Market also proved popular.

Several trends have converged to make this the right time for the redevelopment of Centre Block, Zehr said.

Several new-economy businesses have opened in the core, the two universities have established satellite campuses here and downtown living is more attractive now.

“While downtown living isn’t for everyone it has a different cachet than it did 10 or more years ago, so I think it is coming into its own as a major urban centre in the Region of Waterloo,” Zehr said.

“There is much more realization that urban intensification is something we will be seeing much more of in the next decades,” he said.

[Spokes]

I thought phase one was supposed to be the Duke St tower? Did they flip flop these?

And I also didn't think the King street tower had 240 units, I thought it had less.

Maybe did the Record mess this one up?

[jay]

I hope they don't take until 2012 to get this going. Hopefully they change from August to Spring for the sales office.

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

So is anyone on here registered with the website for city centre condominiums? What's the latest news on this development?

[Spokes]

I am, haven't heard anything though

[taylortbb]

They covered the project on CTV this evening: http://swo.ctv.ca/news.php?id=7631 .

The renders looked newer than anything I've seen, I wonder how we could get ahold of them.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Interesting new renders. Just a guess but the Economic Development Advisory Committee is meeting tomorrow (http://www.kitchener.ca/calendar/calendarEventDetailFull.aspx?tid=18098&caldate=Wed Jun 23, 2010). Unfortunately the agenda hasn't been posted online, but I'll try to pop in to see if this is being discussed.

On Andrin's Coming Soon (http://www.andrinhomes.com/pages/comingSoon/index.html)section, it lists this project as September 2010.

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Kitchener/AndrinHomes-ComingSoonCentreBlockSe.jpg

[Spokes]

Well glad to see theyre starting the sales centre next month. Maybe we'll see construction start by spring 2011 on the actual building

[panamaniac]

This seems like good news. I have noticed that all media reports on the project seem to suggest that it will all be built at once. Given the number of condo units involved, I would have expected the developer to stage the development, starting with one of the two towers. Does anyone know how this is expected to unfold?

[Spokes]

This seems like good news. I have noticed that all media reports on the project seem to suggest that it will all be built at once. Given the number of condo units involved, I would have expected the developer to stage the development, starting with one of the two towers. Does anyone know how this is expected to unfold?

Really? Which ones? It was always supposed to be the King st tower then the Duke st tower.

[Section ThirtyOne]

Also interesting is the fact that they seem to be fairly aggressive in their pricing. MUCH cheaper than Uptown (and for good reason), with suites topping out at the $400,000 range. I'll be interested to see the renders of the building and finishes available for each unit.

[jay]

It's a smart approach.

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

Also interesting is the fact that they seem to be fairly aggressive in their pricing. MUCH cheaper than Uptown (and for good reason), with suites topping out at the $400,000 range. I'll be interested to see the renders of the building and finishes available for each unit.

I don't see why it should be really cheap. It's right in the centre of downtown. It's a very amenable, up-and-coming area with a lot of new development. Only problem down there is the punked-out street kids and aggressive panhandlers. But Yonge street and Rue St. Catharine have a lot of that too.

[jay]

key words is up-and-coming... Meaning it isn't there yet, hence, the cheaper prices.

It's a good strategy. They are still going make a profit of the job, it will sell faster and therefore get built faster and allow the developer to get his money faster.

You have to remember also there is 144 Park going on, Barrel Yards, Arrow Lofts, etc all in sales mode now or soon, so there will be a lot of condos on the market. People in KW are not all pro-condo living. The only reason people do it in toronto so much is because it's the only thing they can afford.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Unfortunately there was nothing said regarding this at the Economic Development Advisory Committee today (the meeting was all about the green energy industry).

[panamaniac]

Really? Which ones? It was always supposed to be the King st tower then the Duke st tower.

I am sure you are right as that would make more sense.

[Spokes]

Some great points made today about pricing. I think they're priced appropriately for the area. Like was mentioned, it's up and coming so you can't get the prices you saw at Bauer for example. And supply and demand is a huge factor. With a number of competing projects in downtown alone, not to mention uptown, that keeps the price low. But the neighbourhood is an important factor, maybe the most important factor. I think you'll see Centre Block be the project that jump starts other projects, as well as prices.

[Urbanomicon]

Some great points made today about pricing. I think they're priced appropriately for the area. Like was mentioned, it's up and coming so you can't get the prices you saw at Bauer for example. And supply and demand is a huge factor. With a number of competing projects in downtown alone, not to mention uptown, that keeps the price low. But the neighbourhood is an important factor, maybe the most important factor. I think you'll see Centre Block be the project that jump starts other projects, as well as prices.


Those condos could be a real investment. If the Kitchener downtown revitalization / LRT goes ahead as planned, I can see those units easily doubling in value over the next 10-20 years.

[Spokes]

Those condos could be a real investment. If the Kitchener downtown revitalization / LRT goes ahead as planned, I can see those units easily doubling in value over the next 10-20 years.

Definitely! If you've got the money to invest, it's potentially a great investment. The only problem is what you could rent one out for, and what condo fees would be.

[panamaniac]

Definitely!.... The only problem is what you could rent one out for, and what condo fees would be.

Not necessarily a problem - better looked at as a tax-loss opportunity.

[Spokes]

Not necessarily a problem - better looked at as a tax-loss opportunity.

How do you mean?

[panamaniac]

Someone correct me if I am wrong on this, but when you purchase a property as an investment all expenses related to the property (except the mortgage payment) are deductible against the gross income from the property (i.e. rent). Assuming you have a substantial mortgage, in the first years after you purchase, you may take a loss (ie. expenses exceed income), or only a modest "profit". In the meantime, someone else is effectively paying off your mortgage for you which is what makes such an investment attractive. If real estate prices continue to increase at the same time, you win twice.

[bcwessel]

I don't see why it should be really cheap. It's right in the centre of downtown. It's a very amenable, up-and-coming area with a lot of new development. Only problem down there is the punked-out street kids and aggressive panhandlers. But Yonge street and Rue St. Catharine have a lot of that too.

You're making some very broad, very problematic assumptions about who is entitled to be downtown and who is not. Urban streets represent the last well-defined, truly public spaces left in a post-modern, post-industrial context. (In fact, several worthy arguments can be made that even these public streets are no longer public spaces.) We spend a lot of time on here talking about the best ways to inject new life into our existing urban areas, and at least passing references to the need for more "public space" are made often. I think it's worth thinking about what "public" really means, and about who we feel deserves access to the shared discourse of our city's built landscapes.

[Section ThirtyOne]

When does that sales centre open again? :P

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

You're making some very broad, very problematic assumptions about who is entitled to be downtown and who is not. Urban streets represent the last well-defined, truly public spaces left in a post-modern, post-industrial context. (In fact, several worthy arguments can be made that even these public streets are no longer public spaces.) We spend a lot of time on here talking about the best ways to inject new life into our existing urban areas, and at least passing references to the need for more "public space" are made often. I think it's worth thinking about what "public" really means, and about who we feel deserves access to the shared discourse of our city's built landscapes.

Just pointing it out as a fact. Form whatever opinions you want, but you know it has an impact on the desirability of the core for anyone who can afford to live elsewhere. It's the primary reason why uptown is more expensive. For what it's worth, any real city has some of this going on. A little bit can spice things up...a lot can turn people away.

[Spokes]

Someone correct me if I am wrong on this, but when you purchase a property as an investment all expenses related to the property (except the mortgage payment) are deductible against the gross income from the property (i.e. rent). Assuming you have a substantial mortgage, in the first years after you purchase, you may take a loss (ie. expenses exceed income), or only a modest "profit". In the meantime, someone else is effectively paying off your mortgage for you which is what makes such an investment attractive. If real estate prices continue to increase at the same time, you win twice.

I think you're right. I thought that was what you were talking about but just needed clarification.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Someone correct me if I am wrong on this, but when you purchase a property as an investment all expenses related to the property (except the mortgage payment) are deductible against the gross income from the property (i.e. rent). Assuming you have a substantial mortgage, in the first years after you purchase, you may take a loss (ie. expenses exceed income), or only a modest "profit". In the meantime, someone else is effectively paying off your mortgage for you which is what makes such an investment attractive. If real estate prices continue to increase at the same time, you win twice.

You also get to deduct the interest portion of your mortgage, which in the early years would be the majority of the payment.

In general I think these will be a good investment, it will just depend on what Andrin's asking per sq ft.

[panamaniac]

Yes, I should have been clearer when I referred to the mortgage payment.

[Spokes]

There's a big billboard advertising this project on King just across from The Breithaupt Block. You see it as you're leaving downtown. Unfortunately there's no pictures of it, which usually helps get peoples attention. Hopefully they do a serious marketing campaign for these. The42 did that prior to launch and look how that ended up.

[Spokes]

Another billboard on Weber right in front of the VIA station. I hope they're not just doing these downtown (I would guess they arent). Hopefully throughout the entire Region. Anyone else seen any?

[Matt2727]

Have they started doing anything with the sales centre yet? This project needs to get going.

[Spokes]

Have they started doing anything with the sales centre yet? This project needs to get going.

I thought the talk was that the sales centre was going to happen in august, but our title here says september, so im going to say september. I wonder if they'll set the sales center up on site, or do it elsewhere.

[taylortbb]

I thought the talk was that the sales centre was going to happen in august, but our title here says september, so im going to say september.

From the Kitchener website:


When will the sales office and model suite open?
According to the agreement of purchase and sale, Andrin must install a project sales office and model suite by Aug. 31, 2010.

I'm starting to get a bit concerned about this project. I don't think 3 weeks to build a model suite seems particularly likely. If Andrin misses this deadline, which seems almost inevitable right now, then I'm pretty sure the agreement with the city collapses. At the same time, they wouldn't be putting up billboards if they were planning to abandon the project. It just doesn't make any sense, so I'm really not sure what to make of it.

[Spokes]

They were a sponsor at Blues Festival too. They had their own tent I believe by the main stage. I think they really dropped the ball. They should have opened a sales centre 2 weeks ago and then they could have benefited from all the traffic downtown this weekend. That would have been great for them.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Do you think this will turn into another 247 King Street North (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/32-247-King-Street-North-80-m-25-fl-Tenant-Relocaton)?

[Spokes]

Do you think this will turn into another 247 King Street North (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/32-247-King-Street-North-80-m-25-fl-Tenant-Relocaton)?

Doubtful. Andrin's just recently started a marketing campaign, billboards, ads in the newspaper, they wouldn't do this if they weren't going ahead with the project.

I wonder what would happen if they missed the deadline the agreement stated? I think they were a little late with signing the agreement to begin with. I think it was supposed to happen by November 30, 09 and it didn't happen till mid December.

[jay]

I agree with Spokes on how they dropped the ball on not having the sales office opened for the Blues Festival. I'm doubtful they will have the sales office ready in 3 weeks, unless it's being built somewhere else, which is unlikely.

[Spokes]

I agree with Spokes on how they dropped the ball on not having the sales office opened for the Blues Festival. I'm doubtful they will have the sales office ready in 3 weeks, unless it's being built somewhere else, which is unlikely.

It really depends on what they planning on doing for it. Is it supposed to be on the Centre Block site?

[jay]

You would assume so. Or in one of the retail units in building beside the Mayfair Hotel, or in the hotel.

[Spokes]

You would assume so. Or in one of the retail units in building beside the Mayfair Hotel, or in the hotel.

The one unit is devoted to the King st makeover but its never used, they should use that if its big enough. Its pretty much being wasted now.

On a potentially unrelated note, the Artery Gallery looks completely gutted.

[urbandreamer]

Not a good time to be launching a large project--the real estate slowdown brings too much risk. I predict this project is canned.

[taylortbb]

Not a good time to be launching a large project--the real estate slowdown brings too much risk. I predict this project is canned.

Then why have billboards going up?

Also, things are pretty good here, you might have missed Waterloo being named the second-best place to invest in Canada: http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/36-Housing-Market?p=12484#post12484 .

I know Toronto didn't make the list, but that doesn't completely invalidate it, as much as you may wish it did. :p

[Spokes]

Not a good time to be launching a large project--the real estate slowdown brings too much risk. I predict this project is canned.

What real estate slow downs? Pretty sure the market here is quite strong. What other justification might you provide for the canning of this project?

[Spokes]

The front part of this lot is fenced off (along King st.) and there's some digging of the "garden" that was there going on. Not sure what's going on, but Im guessing for the sales centre.

[RangersFan]

The front part of this lot is fenced off (along King st.) and there's some digging of the "garden" that was there going on. Not sure what's going on, but Im guessing for the sales centre.

If so thats great news, this project has the potential to really elevate downtown to another level.

[jay]

Hopefully it is. They need to get the sales office running sooner than later so that they don't lose projected buyers to other developments in the area.

I expected them to have it in one of the retail stores in the building they own, but maybe they wanted more of a presence on King St.

[Spokes]

Hopefully it is. They need to get the sales office running sooner than later so that they don't lose projected buyers to other developments in the area.

I expected them to have it in one of the retail stores in the building they own, but maybe they wanted more of a presence on King St.

There's not really many competing projects though for the target demographic.

[metropolis]

I'm interested to see if they can keep that $189,990 starting price the billboard advertises and if so what size those units will be. Reflections at Laurelwood (in he boonies) is advertizing their starting price at $179,000, which means that if City Centre pulls off that $189 it would likely see great success.

[UrbanWaterloo]

PERMIT IS FOR CITY CENTRE SALES PAVILLION - SALES OFFICE AND 2 MODEL SUITES. MECHANICAL AND ELECTRICAL IS PROPOSED
Permit No 10119960
Site Address 122 KING ST W
Status Issued
Permit Category Commercial Building
Permit Type Office Building
Application Date July 19, 2010
Issued By DIANNEC
Issue Date August 16, 2010
Final Date
Work Proposed New Construction
Construction Value $205,000
Contractor ANDRIN CITY CENTRE ONE LIMITED
Contractor Contact Info 26 LESMILL RD TORONTO ON phone 416-733-3128 phone2 416-733-3129

[Spokes]

Ok that makes sense. I can't see a sales centre taking too long to build, but maybe someone with more knowledge of something like that (after seeing the42 and Bauer's sales centres get built maybe?) could clarify.

[UrbanWaterloo]

September 1, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/CityCentreCondominiums-September12010-1.jpg

[jay]

Nice... About time. As for the sales office, it shouldn't take more then 2 weeks to build. It is just a model.

[waterloo_local]

It's too bad that their website has no floor layouts or anything for the condos. They obviously have it. Instead you have to register to get more information.

Just a few PDFs would be nice

[panamaniac]

It's too bad that their website has no floor layouts or anything for the condos. They obviously have it. Instead you have to register to get more information.

Just a few PDFs would be nice

I agree. I hope the website will go up when they open the sales office. I am interested to see whether they propose to build both towers at the same time or, if it is to be staged, which tower will go up first. I doubt that the market could absorb that many condos at once.

[Spokes]

Everything that's been said in the past says it's going to be staged. The King st tower would be first.

I cant imagine they wouldn't post their floor plans before opening the sales centre. THat'd be another massive mistake.

[Ktown4ever]

:RpS_biggrin:
570 News Sep 07, 2010 14:50:04 PM

Ground has been broken on a sales office that will drive growth in downtown Kitchener. Representatives from Andrin Homes, the City of Kitchener and the Downtown BIA were on-hand at a ceremony Tuesday morning that marked the beginning of construction on what will become a dedicated, 3,500-square-foot sales pavilion.

"The sales centre itself will have two, fully furnished model suites," says Anne Marchildon, vice-president, Sales and Marketing with Andrin Homes. "The exterior of the sales centre (will also be) representative of what the building will look like, (from the) brick colour, the panel colours, the window details, all of that sort of thing."

The sales centre will also include a 2,000-square-foot presentation area with multimedia capabilities to allow potential buyers to go through the project step-by-step.

Marchildon calls Kitchener a "very good" municipality to work with.

"They're very forward-thinking, they do their homework, everybody is looking to the same objective," she says.

Kitchener's Director of Economic Development, Rod Regier, is admittedly excited by this next step in the project.

"It's coming at the right time," he says. "We've had some great announcements in the downtown recently with The Tannery and The Communitech Hub developed there, followed by the Google move. So we're very excited about where this fits into the overall constellation."

Regier says the next step is to get more people living in the downtown and he believes Tuesday's announcement is a positive move in that direction.

Centre Block has sat dormant for almost a decade after the city learned of plans for a pornographic movie theatre and began buying up property. To date, Kitchener has spent about $9-million acquiring lands in the area bounded by King, Young, Duke and Ontario streets. Previous efforts to develop the property, including a potential relocation of the Main Branch of the Kitchener Public Library, have failed.

Not this time, says Regier.

"I'm really confident," he enthuses. "They've (Andrin) got a great sales team, a great marketing team and all of the other pieces of the puzzle are coming together in the downtown. This is exactly the kind of project that will benefit from a commitment by the region to develop a rapid transit system."

Marchildon shares the city's enthusiasm about the project.

"We have a lot of people registered on our website, I get e-mails from people asking 'when is it coming, when is it coming.' There are a number of social media sites that we also follow where they talk about architecture and projects and that sort of thing so we know there's a lot of interest in the project."

If the fall is favourable in terms of construction weather, Andrin expects to have the sales centre open by year's end.

And is Marchildon confident that Andrin can meet the presale objective of 80 per cent in order to satisfy the banks so they, in turn, can fund the construction?

"Oh yes," she says. "Yes."

[UrbanWaterloo]

Downtown momentum continues with City Centre groundbreaking
September 7, 2010 | http://cityofkitchener.icreate.kitchener.ca/en/newslist/index.aspx?newsId=rhTTaMW2iH1nM8fu9kxA9weQuAleQuAl

http://cityofkitchener.icreate.kitchener.ca/uploads/org_634194563191070000.jpg

KITCHENER – Earlier today the City of Kitchener and its partners – the downtown BIA and Andrin Investments Limited – celebrated a major milestone in the continuing evolution of the downtown with a groundbreaking ceremony for the City Centre sales pavilion.

Today’s ceremony marked the beginning of construction on what will become a dedicated, 3,500-square-foot sales pavilion containing a fully furnished one bedroom suite with a den and a two bedroom suite with a media room.

During construction of the pavilion, customers will be able to arrange an appointment to preview the development at a temporary sales office location set up by Andrin Investments Limited. To register and make an appointment, visit: http://www.liveatcitycentre.com/

Once completed in the coming months, the sales pavilion will promote a mixed-use development planned for the lands located directly beside Kitchener City Hall. The development by Andrin Investments Limited will include:


397 residential units located in two towers and three podium buildings fronting on King, Young and Duke Streets;
7,000 square feet of new retail space along King Street
A publicly accessible open space/court yard that will be located in the centre of the development on top of the parking structure.
The City of Kitchener is partnering with Andrin in the construction of a three-level parking structure; the city will own the top deck of 250 public parking spaces.

The City Centre Condominiums project is one of many significant developments either recently completed, underway or planned for the downtown core. Projects that are underway or have been completed include:


University of Waterloo Health Sciences Campus
Consolidated Provincial Courthouse
Kitchener Public Library project
The Lang Tannery
Breithaupt Block
Arrow Lofts
Downtown Kitchener Communitech Digital Media hub
Kaufman Lofts
Le Marche Condominiums, Kitchener Market
Wilfrid Laurier Faculty of Social Work
Downtown Community Centre
Waterloo Region Catholic School Board Head Office
Shopper’s Drug Mart development

What the sales pavilion will look like once construction is complete. PDF (http://www.kitchener.ca//uploads/doc_634194542608257500.pdf)
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/CityCentreSalesOffice%28doc_634194542608257500%29. JPG

[KevinL]

Wow, that's a nice render. Look forward to seeing it in the flesh.

[Greg Moore]

Nice steps. Those better not be there when the sales center opens or I'm going to go ballistic. :RpS_cursing:

[David]

I'm sure there will be access, if that is what you're getting at? Legally there would have to be.

[panamaniac]

Geez - pre-sale objective of 80%? The banks have really tightened things up. Wasn't 60% the old rule of thumb?

[Spokes]

Fantastic things are going to finally get going!

It's always been at 80% hasn't it?

[Shawn]

I registered on the website. I still haven't received anything from them, but I look forward to seeing floor plans! Does anybody know when this sales office is supposed to be completed?

[diego]

I registered on the website. I still haven't received anything from them, but I look forward to seeing floor plans! Does anybody know when this sales office is supposed to be completed?

"If the fall is favourable in terms of construction weather, Andrin expects to have the sales centre open by year's end."

[Matt2727]

"If the fall is favourable in terms of construction weather, Andrin expects to have the sales centre open by year's end."

I heard on the 6 o'clock news that the sales centre should be finished in about 90 days.

[Spokes]

High hopes for downtown condos on Centre Block

September 08, 2010
By Jeff Outhit, Record staff

KITCHENER — Developer Andrin Homes will soon promote the condominiums it hopes to build on city-owned land in downtown Kitchener.

Ground was broken Tuesday for a sales centre on the partly vacant Centre Block facing King Street, east of City Hall.

The project is Kitchener council’s third attempt to redevelop the block it spent about $13 million to assemble. “I’m pleased that we’re at this point,” Mayor Carl Zehr said.

Andrin has until Nov. 30, 2012 to take out building permits for its first phase. If this happens, it gets the site for just over $3 million. The city also plans to partner with Andrin on a parking garage.

If the project falters, the deal is off and council seeks another use for the site. “I doubt that will happen,” Zehr said.

The sales centre will likely open to the public in January, featuring model suites for one and two bedrooms. Andrin is the firm that put lofts into the former Kaufman factory at King and Victoria streets.

Sales will target singles and young couples, first-time buyers who aren’t seeking houses with lots. The first phase could open in 2013.

“I think there is a real desire for people who are in that segment of life, that they’re not looking for a home, to live in downtown Kitchener,” said Anne Marchildon, Andrin’s vice-president of sales and marketing.

The completed development, estimated at $105 million, is anticipated to include 397 residential units in two towers. Retail space is planned on King Street.

A website at www.livingatcitycentre.ca invites interested buyers to state a price range starting at $180,000.

City council started assembling the site a decade ago, to block the opening of a movie theatre for X-rated films. Two redevelopment efforts have since failed, including an abandoned proposal to relocate the main library to the site.

jouthit@therecord.com

[Matt2727]

I guess i heard wrong or somthing. haha. Thanks for the article

[diego]

High hopes for downtown condos on Centre Block

September 08, 2010
By Jeff Outhit, Record staff

KITCHENER — Developer Andrin Homes will soon promote the condominiums it hopes to build on city-owned land in downtown Kitchener.
...
If the project falters, the deal is off and council seeks another use for the site. “I doubt that will happen,” Zehr said.
...
jouthit@therecord.com

"it hopes to build..."

Seriously??? Why do they always seem to have this negative tone against development? This project is 100% happening... I'm pretty sure everyone will be impressed of how well it will sell.

[Greg Moore]

I'm sure there will be access, if that is what you're getting at? Legally there would have to be.

Legally, there doesn't have to be access until 2012. If it gets built without a level entrance, who is going to have the time, patience or desire to force changes? If it's not built accessible it will mean plenty of people who the final building will suit, would not be afforded the opportunity to buy on an even playing field.

I've written them an email.

[smably]

Based on the Kaufman Lofts, Andrin doesn't seem to care much about accessibility. For example, the pedestrian access to Victoria St N is blocked by a curb (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=king+and+victoria+kitchener&sll=43.434311,-80.477747&sspn=0.669637,0.832214&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Victoria+St+N+%26+King+St+W,+Kitchener,+Wate rloo+Regional+Municipality,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.453217,-80.497953&spn=0.002615,0.003251&z=19&layer=c&cbll=43.453308,-80.497898&panoid=auTxgAmWY5m9dO4kWzNl7A&cbp=12,130.5,,1,8.64). Wheelchair users in 410 who want to catch the bus at the corner of King and Victoria have to use the vehicle ramp over by the Love Shop building, not an insignificant detour. All that because nobody thought to put a curb cut in the pedestrian path.

[metropolis]

This is endemic around here (and maybe in the rest of the province). I couldn't tell you how many paths that cross a road don't have cuts in the curb so that if you are on roller blades, on a bike, or in a wheelchair you have to struggle over them as traffic is barreling down at you. It's ridiculous really.

[plam]

This is endemic around here (and maybe in the rest of the province). I couldn't tell you how many paths that cross a road don't have cuts in the curb so that if you are on roller blades, on a bike, or in a wheelchair you have to struggle over them as traffic is barreling down at you. It's ridiculous really.

Yeah, I've taken to hopping the curb at my place rather than taking the (short) detour to the curb cut when coming in on my bike.

[Shawn]

:RpS_biggrin:
570 News Sep 07, 2010 14:50:04 PM

"We have a lot of people registered on our website, I get e-mails from people asking 'when is it coming, when is it coming.' There are a number of social media sites that we also follow where they talk about architecture and projects and that sort of thing so we know there's a lot of interest in the project."

If the fall is favourable in terms of construction weather, Andrin expects to have the sales centre open by year's end.

I would be willing to bet that Wonderful Waterloo is one of those 'social media sites' and not being too modest, probably the best one! :RpS_cool:

[Sir2nv]

Is anyone aware if the developer is responsible for maintenance of the old legion building on Ontario?

[UrbanWaterloo]

Nope, that property isn't part of this development.

[UrbanWaterloo]

<table id="Table_01" width="705" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" align="center"><tbody><tr><td rowspan="4"><img src="http://www.citycentreliving.ca/emailers/2010-09-10/images/index_01.jpg" width="310" height="945" alt=""></td><td><a href="http://www.citycentreliving.ca/"><img src="http://www.citycentreliving.ca/emailers/2010-09-10/images/index_02.jpg" alt="" width="395" height="216" border="0"></a></td></tr><tr><td><img src="http://www.citycentreliving.ca/emailers/2010-09-10/images/index_03.jpg" width="395" height="442" alt=""></td></tr><tr><td><a href="http://www.citycentreliving.ca/emailers/2010-09-10/thankyou.html"><img src="http://www.citycentreliving.ca/emailers/2010-09-10/images/index_04.jpg" alt="" width="395" height="46" border="0"></a></td></tr><tr><td><img src="http://www.citycentreliving.ca/emailers/2010-09-10/images/index_05.jpg" alt="" width="395" height="241" border="0" usemap="#Map"></td></tr></tbody></table>



http://www.citycentreliving.ca/emailers/2010-09-10/images/thankyou.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

I've heard 158 King Street West will be the Preview Centre.

September 9, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Preview%20Centre%20City%20Centre%20Condos%20%28158 %20King%20Street%20West%29%20-%20September%209%2C%202010%20Resized.JPG

[Spokes]

Preview centre before the sales centre I take it?

[UrbanWaterloo]

Yes, the more permanent sales centre should be open in January.

This video is from Andrin Homes' YouTube Account (http://www.youtube.com/user/AndrinHomes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsjmCH_ZDbA

[Spokes]

Great promo video!! Definitely pushing the neighborhood of downtown even before pushing the project itself.

[Rowe]

Yay Kitchener!

[UrbanWaterloo]

September 26, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20September%2026%2C%202010%20Resized.JPG

[YKF]

^ *tear of joy

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

If the sales centre is going into a retail unit on King street, does that mean the parking lot is being dug up because they are ACTUALLY starting construction?

[UrbanWaterloo]

The 'Preview Centre' at 158 King Street West will just be a temporary 'sales centre'. I've heard people say actual sales will start there, I've heard others say it's just to help build interest (start to show some floor plans, etc..) and sales will only start in January. Either way it's just meant to be temporary.

What you see under construction is the permanent sales centre, which will have model suites and hopefully a 'wow' factor.

[Shawn]

^ *tear of joy

...........Passes YKF a tissue from his half used box...........

[jay]

Should be interesting what happens to some of the local shops when the parking lot disappears.

So many people park there for free after 6pm and on the weekend.

[Rowe]

People can walk, there is no shortage of parking in downtown Kitchener compared to most cities.

[Spokes]

Ya there's plenty of parking elsewhere. You can usually find parking if not on King, but off it fairly easily.

Glad they're getting going. Cant wait to see this and the preview centre. And REALLY cant wait for sales to start.

[UrbanWaterloo]

CITY CENTRE CONDOMINIUM- FRONT OF THE LINE INVITATION PREVIEW
Emailed September 29, 2010

Thank you for your interest in City Centre Condominiums. We would like to extend a personal invitation to you to preview this exciting new project happening in Downtown Kitchener. This event will give you an opportunity as a registrant to be one of the first to preview and purchase our suites before we launch our Grand Opening to the general public.

We are booking appointments on the following dates and times.

Saturday October 2nd 2010 at 1:00 or 4:00
Sunday October 3rd 2010 at 2:00
Tuesday October 5th 2010 at 4:00

Please RSVP before Friday October 1st 2010 for your front of the line spot as appointments will be booked on first come first serve basis with LIMITED SPACES. Please indicate date and time which is most convenient for you. We will follow up with a confirmed appointment and details on location at our earliest convenience.

We look forward to meeting with you soon!

:RpS_thumbsup:

[Shawn]

:banana: :notworthy:

*jealous*

[UrbanWaterloo]

October 1, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condos%20Preview%20Centre%20%28158 %20King%20Street%20West%29%20-%20October%201%2C%202010%20-%201%20Resized.JPG

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condos%20Preview%20Centre%20%28158 %20King%20Street%20West%29%20-%20October%201%2C%202010%20-%203a%20Resized.JPG

For reference, here's the information on the temporary lease:

156/8 KING
Report To: Council Committee of the Whole
Date of Report: September 2 2010 | Date of Meeting: September 7 2010
Prepared & Submitted By: Rod Regier
Report Number: CAO-10-033 (http://weblink.kitchener.ca/weblink7/PDF/4jyvb045jck5r5j2agyxammf/1/CAO-10-033%20-%20Andrin%20Lease%20-%20158%20King.pdf)

RECOMMENDATION

That the Mayor and Clerk be authorized to execute a short-term lease with Andrin Investments Limited, satisfactory to the City Solicitor, to lease 158 King Street West, and

That the Mayor and Clerk be authorized to execute an amendment to the current lease with the University of Waterloo Department of Fine Arts to allow the temporary relocation of the Artery Gallery from 158 King to 156 King Street.

BACKGROUND

Andrin requires a temporary space to accommodate their activities during the construction of the Sales Office and Model Suites due to be completed November 30, 2010. A portion of the existing space located at 158 King is ideally suited to these activities. The UW Artery Gallery which currently occupies 158 King has agreed to relocate to 156 King for the months of October and November. They will be able to continue their fall gallery program from that location.

Andrin will be required to pay utility costs and a commercial monthly lease of $1000.

FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS

The City of Kitchener will receive $2500 which will accrue to the Centre Block account.

[Section ThirtyOne]

Nice!

I was too late to register. If anyone drops by during one of the previews, please post a price list / floor plans (if available) for those of us that are curious!

[UrbanWaterloo]

Zooming-in, it appears as though the model/renderings have changed. I'm counting 16 visible floors in that tower model, and there must be a few floors at its base, so is this back up to 18 floors? In the model it looks like we're back to 6 floors at the base as well. Both are positive developments in my mind. :biggrin: In the rendering it appears as though the tower is no longer all glass, but I can't tell yet if this is an improvement or not (will have to wait to get a clearer image).

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condos%20Preview%20Centre%20%28158 %20King%20Street%20West%29%20-%20October%201%2C%202010%20-%202b%20Resized.jpg http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condos%20Preview%20Centre%20%28158 %20King%20Street%20West%29%20-%20October%201%2C%202010%20-%203a%20Resized.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

Active transportation enthusiasts eat your hearts out, this is a condo building that doesn't automatically include parking! Waterloo Region...Toronto/Vancouver? :cool:

Sales started today on the first tower (Duke Street), which is 17 floors! More to come...

[jay]

Im curious on how much money they will knock of the price for not including the parking spot. If it isn't a lot of money that will hurt them in selling the units to people who want a spot, especially if they want 20-30k for one.

Lets see a price list :)

[smably]

Active transportation enthusiasts eat your hearts out, this is a condo building that doesn't automatically include parking! Waterloo Region...Toronto/Vancouver? :cool:

Sales started today on the first tower (Duke Street), which is 17 floors! More to come...
That's great news! I walked by the preview centre today and spied quite a few people inside. I hope it sells well.

[SP!RE]

Looks like it's all glass/glazing. Main difference is that it has that Toronto/CityPlace condo concrete bisecting section that forms a hat. The Toronto "three-sided box" roof feature, which I quite like.

[panamaniac]

Im curious on how much money they will knock of the price for not including the parking spot. If it isn't a lot of money that will hurt them in selling the units to people who want a spot, especially if they want 20-30k for one.

Lets see a price list :)

Not a dime will they knock off for not buying a parking space. Why would they if people will pay full asking price for a condo unit and then shell out more for a parking space? I too would love to see a price list.

[Spokes]

Active transportation enthusiasts eat your hearts out, this is a condo building that doesn't automatically include parking! Waterloo Region...Toronto/Vancouver? :cool:

Sales started today on the first tower (Duke Street), which is 17 floors! More to come...

Any idea how sales are going?

So phase one is the duke st tower with included parking and the King street retail?

[jay]

Well the units better be priced below market value or they will have a hard time selling them. I for one would not pay 300k for a condo without a parking spot, if I could pay 300k for another condo that came with a spot.

[mpd618]

Well the units better be priced below market value or they will have a hard time selling them. I for one would not pay 300k for a condo without a parking spot, if I could pay 300k for another condo that came with a spot.

Huh? If they're priced at market rates, then by definition they will sell. The market value for a unit with a parking spot is obviously higher than the value for one without - but so is the cost to build.

I'm all for the starting rate not including any parking.

[jay]

I'm kinda jumping the gun on this one, because I have not seen the price list. All i was really saying is I hope they don't try to price it the same as a condo that includes a spot, because I want to see this do well.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Front of the Line Gallery Preview Pricing - October 2, 2010

Note: $1000 Premium/Floor

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20Front%20of%20the%20Line%20Gallery%20Preview%20P ricing%20-%20October%202%2C%202010.jpg

[BuildingScout]

A new record for the KW region:

$330+ per square foot.

As a point of comparison houses are moving for somewhere around $200-$300 per square foot.

[panamaniac]

How do you figure? Base price looks to me more in the area of $300 per sqft, although there's lots of potential add-ons. I was interested but am disappointed by the small size of the units. I would like to see the floor plan for the 2bd/2bth in 780 sq ft - those are some pretty small spaces.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Here it is, I have others too but it's just going to take some time to scan them in. Any other immediate requests?


Model 2-H
780 Square Feet
Plus 100 Square Foot Balcony
Total = 880 Square Feet

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20%202-H.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

The penthouse (floors 16/17) units aren't listed on the price list. There are a few other 'large' (shall we define as greater than 900 sq ft?) units on the penthouse floors.

Model | Interior sq ft | Balcony sq ft | Total sq ft
2-F | 915 | 110 | 1025
2-F1 | 980 | 65| 1045
2D-D | 1075 | 135 | 1210
2D-C | 1150 | 85/170*| 1405

* two balconies

Regular floors have 9 ft ceilings. Penthouses have 10 ft ceilings.

Only the even floors are currently for sale, excluding floor 16, but adding in floor 17.

Appointments are being allocated in groups of 10, off a registration list of 1000+. Seven units sold yesterday among the first 20 registrants. If that ratio were to be even slightly maintained the building will be significantly sold out by the time it reaches full public sales! :RpS_cool: I know of 2 more potential sales going through today.

244 units in this phase.

One thing that will really drive sales is the low downpayment: $20,000.

[Greg Moore]

Any other immediate requests?

Penthouse units?

[jay]

They know the market that is why they went with smaller "cheaper" suites. I can see the smaller units selling fast without a parking spot to investors.

And yes it is $330 a sq/ft if you include the parking, which 80% of the people will want. If you want 2 spots it will cost you 35,000k on top of the unit price.

[Spokes]

It's going to be interesting to see how many people go for the parking compared to those who opt to go without.

I think this project is really showing us what we're going to see in terms of condo sizes in the future. We're now seeing Toronto/Ottawa sizes starting around 500 sq ft and not a whole lot bigger than 1200 sq ft. Gone are the days of 800 sq ft one bedroom units.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Model

Duke/Young
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%201%20Resized.JPG

Duke
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%203%20Resized.JPG

Ontario Street Side
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%204%20Resized.JPG

King Street
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%205a%20Resized.JPG

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%206c%20Resized.JPG

King/Young
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%207b%20Resized.JPG

Courtyard
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%208%20Resized.JPG

[panamaniac]

Nice - I was afraid from the earlier photo that the tower would look "heavier". From the model they seem to have made an effort as well to keep the balconies from overwhelming the facades.
So, if you were going to live here, where in the project would you want your apartment to be taking everything into account (including cost - not everyone can live in the Penthouse!)?

[jay]

Noticing that the condo fees are pretty high around .46cents/sqft.. Even with HST taken into account it seems high, especially for a new development.

[KevinL]

I guess the big blank space here:

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Model%20-%204%20Resized.JPG

is for the second tower to be built later?

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

They know the market that is why they went with smaller "cheaper" suites. I can see the smaller units selling fast without a parking spot to investors.

And yes it is $330 a sq/ft if you include the parking, which 80% of the people will want. If you want 2 spots it will cost you 35,000k on top of the unit price.

I'm surprised we haven't seen more condos in this size/price range being built in the uptown-downtown corridor. When you consider how many young 20 somethings move to this region for jobs, you'd expect our condo market to target starter homes for young singles and childless couples like is being done seemingly everywhere else. The amount of luxury units is surprising, given the fact that there isn't really that big a premium on downtown area land in KW. Needless to say,I have a lot of confidence that this development will sell.


Nice - I was afraid from the earlier photo that the tower would look "heavier". From the model they seem to have made an effort as well to keep the balconies from overwhelming the facades.
So, if you were going to live here, where in the project would you want your apartment to be taking everything into account (including cost - not everyone can live in the Penthouse!)?

My preference would be for a unit facing south, looking towards the more built up area of downtown (and the area also likely to see more highrises in the future). I'd like to be just below the penthouse units, to optimize view and price.


I guess the big blank space here:


is for the second tower to be built later?

Yes. The original proposal showed a 12 storey tower facing King with retail at grade.

[plam]

Thanks UrbanWaterloo. Although it has fewer sqft than my place (@1080), it has no corridor space (which is always useless), so I think the actual usable sqft is about the same.

I would go for 1 parking space. No need for 2. Especially in downtown Kitchener.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Greg: I'll try to get the penthouse floorplans up sometime today, although previously you mentioned you were looking for a larger unit so I don't think you'll be interested in what's still available. Only two 17-floor penthouses (of 9) remain, which are 830 & 840 square feet (interior). You might be interested in something on the 16th floor, but those aren't available for sale yet.

Sales Update: 6 more units sold Sunday, bringing total sales up to 13 from the first forty registrations, quite an amazing rate! Once they've gone through the registration list, they'll be having a Realtors Day (= more sales) before this is wide-open to the public, so if you're thinking of buying I'd strongly suggest registering (http://www.citycentreliving.ca/register.html). All the good units will likely be gone before the model suite under construction is open.

jay: I noticed the condo fees are a bit high too, however I think they're trying to take into account significant price increases expected in Water Supply & Energy (heat), which will also affect single family homes and existing condos.

Urban_Enthusiast86 is correct the blank space is for the 2nd phase, however it will be the redesign at 14 stories.

plam: Agreed, there's no need for 2 parking spots here. Andrin is really pricing the parking geared towards one space per unit. The first spot is $17,500 whereas the 2nd is $29,000.

The first 100 buyers get an iPad, although I'm going to ask if we can switch to get a PlayBook instead!

[Section ThirtyOne]

Wow, the prices are much, much higher than expected. Can this development really justify $330/square foot? At that price, you're creeping in to what is expected for Uptown developments. For example, 144 Park is justifying their premium pricing by having higher end features and finishes as standard. Can the same be said for City Centre?

[Ktown4ever]

I'm really surprised they haven't offered bigger floorplans. Nothing bigger than 1,200 sq. ft.

[plam]

I'm really surprised they haven't offered bigger floorplans. Nothing bigger than 1,200 sq. ft.

I thought that too. But they don't seem to have corridors, so they are actually using the space they do have more effectively. Sometimes it's not all about putting up the higher numbers.

[jay]

Going smaller makes sense considering the market in downtown Kitchener. In my opinion they don't stand a chance trying to sell a bunch 500k+ units in downtown Kitchener, with all the competition from Uptown. The smaller suites will attract investors and first time home buyers, etc..

[UrbanWaterloo]

I heard another one of the penthouses sold yesterday and a friend of mine switched from 1D-1 (650 sq ft) to 2-K (840 sq ft). I hadn't thought of this before, but having smaller units as the base doesn't prevent someone who prefers a larger unit to merge two together (as was done a few times at the Bauer Lofts).


Rendering

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Model%20%26%20Renderings/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Rendering%20Resized800.jpg

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

^ I LOVE it!! It's very sophisticated and represents exactly the direction we should be heading in. It makes me think of buildings like the Mondrian in Ottawa, or perhaps a stubbier version of what gets built around Yorkville in Toronto.

Great news about the penthouse being sold so early as well. Those are often the hardest units to sell in these parts. Although, to its credit, this building is much cheaper and has much smaller units compared to what we're used to seeing in the region (and that's not a bad thing, IMO).

[UrbanWaterloo]

In addition to the relatively smaller units, I think what's also helping sell the penthouse suites is the fact this will be the tallest building in Downtown Kitchener (the view is going to be awesome!). That adds to the prestige factor of these units, which wouldn't have existed had this only been a five or eight floor building.

[Spokes]

^ I LOVE it!! It's very sophisticated and represents exactly the direction we should be heading in. It makes me think of buildings like the Mondrian in Ottawa, or perhaps a stubbier version of what gets built around Yorkville in Toronto.

Great news about the penthouse being sold so early as well. Those are often the hardest units to sell in these parts. Although, to its credit, this building is much cheaper and has much smaller units compared to what we're used to seeing in the region (and that's not a bad thing, IMO).

I thought of that comparison too. You're right, this looks fantastic!!

I really think once this sells out we're going to see more proposed projects for downtown. I think a lot of people were using this project as a barometer as to where downtown was at.

Maybe David's Gourmet will even come back. Haha, not likely.


In addition to the relatively smaller units, I think what's also helping sell the penthouse suites is the fact this will be the tallest building in Downtown Kitchener (the view is going to be awesome!). That adds to the prestige factor of these units, which wouldn't have existed had this only been a five or eight floor building.

For now ;) With all due respect to the people who bought penthouse units I hope in the near future we see the Charles street terminal torn down for a two tower condo project that is taller than this, therefore hurting their view. :)

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

I thought of that comparison too. You're right, this looks fantastic!!

I really think once this sells out we're going to see more proposed projects for downtown. I think a lot of people were using this project as a barometer as to where downtown was at.

Maybe David's Gourmet will even come back. Haha, not likely.

Yeah, if this project sells qucikly (especially in recession), I think that'll boost confidence in the downtown housing market tremendously. Uptown never had those barriers of perception previously.

I can't remember David's precise reason for closing his downtown store. Was he breaking even there, or was it those other, more political/personal reasons he decided to close up shop?

In any case, what downtown needs is a regular grocery store, like an urban-format Sobey's. I would've figured there might be a market for something higher end, but since Vincenzo's has already established itself down the road, I think it's highly unlikely for quite some time.

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

For now ;) With all due respect to the people who bought penthouse units I hope in the near future we see the Charles street terminal torn down for a two tower condo project that is taller than this, therefore hurting their view. :)

Yes, it's a shame it wasn't taller. Not to sound too negative, but the downtown Kitchener skyline is so bland, sparse, and flat. All the highrises are roughly the same height. That would completely change if a few Sunlife-height or taller buildings were plopped somewhere in the middle of it all.

[isUsername]

this will be the tallest building in Downtown Kitchener

Won't it be the shorter than the Queen-Margaret buildings? QM is 18 stories.

[Spokes]

Yeah, if this project sells qucikly (especially in recession), I think that'll boost confidence in the downtown housing market tremendously. Uptown never had those barriers of perception previously.

I can't remember David's precise reason for closing his downtown store. Was he breaking even there, or was it those other, more political/personal reasons he decided to close up shop?

In any case, what downtown needs is a regular grocery store, like an urban-format Sobey's. I would've figured there might be a market for something higher end, but since Vincenzo's has already established itself down the road, I think it's highly unlikely for quite some time.

Combination of factors. He didn't have the clientele so wasn't generating tons of revenue, probably more importantly, David's wife got that location in an ugly divorce and she didn't want it.

You're right though, downtown is desparate for a grocery store. And they need a regular grocery store before trying to go high end. David wasn't too far off in his store, just far off in his timing.

[isUsername]

Yes, it's a shame it wasn't taller. Not to sound too negative, but the downtown Kitchener skyline is so bland, sparse, and flat. All the highrises are roughly the same height. That would completely change if a few Sunlife-height or taller buildings were plopped somewhere in the middle of it all.

Personally, I'd prefer a sloping height. <20 stories along King, and >20 along Duke, Charles, and Weber. Tall buildings are a bit daunting for a pedestrian focused area.

[Spokes]

Yes, it's a shame it wasn't taller. Not to sound too negative, but the downtown Kitchener skyline is so bland, sparse, and flat. All the highrises are roughly the same height. That would completely change if a few Sunlife-height or taller buildings were plopped somewhere in the middle of it all.

I would agree with you for the most part. It does need more added to it's skyline, and I think it'll happen.

I saw this image today and it kinda caught me off guard, from this perspective it looks like a decent skyline: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cityofkitchener/4748941533/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4093/4748941533_31ba08a63a_z.jpg


Personally, I'd prefer a sloping height. <20 stories along King, and >20 along Duke, Charles, and Weber. Tall buildings are a bit daunting for a pedestrian focused area.

I've heard this opinion from a number of people. For King street, Im ok either way, I don't just want to see 4 storey buildings along king, some height but it doesn't have to be all height. Step backs maybe? That's what they're saying has to be done on King now anyways.

I do want to emphasise something you said, Duke, Charles and Weber streets. They're part of downtown too and I hope they get as much attention as King does. That'd make a truly dense core, not the single strip that both uptown and downtown currently have.

[fin2limb]

You're right though, downtown is desparate for a grocery store. And they need a regular grocery store before trying to go high end. David wasn't too far off in his store, just far off in his timing.

As someone who lives downtown, I totally agree. Although Shopper's is decent, it doesn't have the selection that a normal grocery store would.

[Spokes]

As someone who lives downtown, I totally agree. Although Shopper's is decent, it doesn't have the selection that a normal grocery store would.

Absolutely, you've either got to go to Central or Sobeys on Highland or Belmont. I feel your pain.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Eventually I'd like to see the Charles Street Terminal redeveloped as well, but that's quite a ways off still. First we'll have to build the LRT/Intermodal Station, then we'll probably have a RFP, then the builder will refine their concept, sell/market the building then finally construct it. It's really more of a 2020's project.

Queen-Margaret, The Regency & Wellington Place all have more floors, but their floor heights are just average, whereas City Centre Condos starts off with 11 foot ceilings on the main floor, 9 foot ceilings throughout the building and 10 foot ceilings on the penthouse floors. It's the same reason why the Sun Life Tower (at 18 floors) is taller than Wellington Place (at 19 floors).

[benjaminbach]

Eventually I'd like to see the Charles Street Terminal redeveloped as well, but that's quite a ways off still. First we'll have to build the LRT/Intermodal Station, then we'll probably have a RFP, then the builder will refine their concept, sell/market the building then finally construct it. It's really more of a 2020's project.

I'd bet on it being redeveloped a couple years before then. It is one of the best high rise sites left downtown - nice unobstructed views of Victoria Park

[KevinL]

I LOVE it!! It's very sophisticated and represents exactly the direction we should be heading in.

I also think it should nicely complement the City Hall tower, across Young. A very good look, I'm so pleased!

[bcwessel]

I'm putting my vote squarely in the camp of less height. Would Downtown be better off had this project been spread across 3 or 4 blocks at 5 to 8 stories? This is a subjective question, but I feel it's one upon which we should all continually reflect as the area continues to fill back up. When I think of my favourite neighbourhoods in Toronto, Bay St. is far down the list, while places like College West and The Annex sparkle in comparison. Towers are great for skylines, but I'd much rather be Downtown than view it from afar. Don't get me wrong, I am ecstatic about this project and I think it will do wonders for the core. I also think that, given the optics of this specific project at this specific moment, the fact that City Centre makes a big statement is great for further renewing confidence in a place that has been long-neglected.

I'm also a little conflicted when it comes to maximum height zoning (though minimum heights are obviously a must). I tend to find the levels above 8 stories to be something akin to stacked suburbs. They're great for density, but the don't really have much of a relationship with the places upon which they are stacked. The condo massacre that is charging steadily west along The Gardiner is a perfect example of how cheerleading for height can go horribly wrong (I don't want to push the analogy too hard, since City Centre has little in common with many of those projects. The designers of this particular project have obviously put a great deal of thought into how people will live around the structures, and for that they should be commended.)

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

I'm putting my vote squarely in the camp of less height. Would Downtown be better off had this project been spread across 3 or 4 blocks at 5 to 8 stories? This is a subjective question, but I feel it's one upon which we should all continually reflect as the area continues to fill back up. When I think of my favourite neighbourhoods in Toronto, Bay St. is far down the list, while places like College West and The Annex sparkle in comparison. Towers are great for skylines, but I'd much rather be Downtown than view it from afar. Don't get me wrong, I am ecstatic about this project and I think it will do wonders for the core. I also think that, given the optics of this specific project at this specific moment, the fact that City Centre makes a big statement is great for further renewing confidence in a place that has been long-neglected.

Why not have a bit of both?

I think the main factor that makes areas like the Annex and College West vibrant and interesting places has less to do with their height, and more the fact that you have fine-grain (narrow and frequent storefronts) retail continuously lining the streets and more of a 24/7 streetlife. Bay street just gets hectic during work hours and empties out after 5pm and on weekends. And other than the entrances of a bunch of banking towers, with the odd coffee shop here and there, what is there on street level? There's malls underground, but a mall is still a mall at the end of the day.

We already have King street as a street with fine-grain retail. Perhaps we could model the 'mixed-use corridors' in a similar fashion. And perhaps the height and large quantities of employees and residents could be focused more on side streets or streets like Duke/Weber/Charles/etc. Those streets could accomodate highrises with larger retail spaces. Just a thought.


The condo massacre that is charging steadily west along The Gardiner is a perfect example of how cheerleading for height can go horribly wrong (I don't want to push the analogy too hard, since City Centre has little in common with many of those projects. The designers of this particular project have obviously put a great deal of thought into how people will live around the structures, and for that they should be commended.)

I think that the failure of the condo massacre along the Gardiner has less to do with the fact that the buildings are tall, and more to do with the fact that there's very little mixture of uses, and huge obstacles for pedestrians to overcome in trying to connect to adjacent neighbourhoods.

[Spokes]

I'm putting my vote squarely in the camp of less height. Would Downtown be better off had this project been spread across 3 or 4 blocks at 5 to 8 stories? This is a subjective question, but I feel it's one upon which we should all continually reflect as the area continues to fill back up. When I think of my favourite neighbourhoods in Toronto, Bay St. is far down the list, while places like College West and The Annex sparkle in comparison. Towers are great for skylines, but I'd much rather be Downtown than view it from afar. Don't get me wrong, I am ecstatic about this project and I think it will do wonders for the core. I also think that, given the optics of this specific project at this specific moment, the fact that City Centre makes a big statement is great for further renewing confidence in a place that has been long-neglected.

I'm also a little conflicted when it comes to maximum height zoning (though minimum heights are obviously a must). I tend to find the levels above 8 stories to be something akin to stacked suburbs. They're great for density, but the don't really have much of a relationship with the places upon which they are stacked. The condo massacre that is charging steadily west along The Gardiner is a perfect example of how cheerleading for height can go horribly wrong (I don't want to push the analogy too hard, since City Centre has little in common with many of those projects. The designers of this particular project have obviously put a great deal of thought into how people will live around the structures, and for that they should be commended.)

While I like height, I too dont think that every single project should be 20+ storeys, I think we need some mid rise ~8 storey projects mixed in. That being said, height right now is good because it means lots of people with downtown needs badly


Why not have a bit of both?

I think the main factor that makes areas like the Annex and College West vibrant and interesting places has less to do with their height, and more the fact that you have fine-grain (narrow and frequent storefronts) retail continuously lining the streets and more of a 24/7 streetlife. Bay street just gets hectic during work hours and empties out after 5pm and on weekends. And other than the entrances of a bunch of banking towers, with the odd coffee shop here and there, what is there on street level? There's malls underground, but a mall is still a mall at the end of the day.

We already have King street as a street with fine-grain retail. Perhaps we could model the 'mixed-use corridors' in a similar fashion. And perhaps the height and large quantities of employees and residents could be focused more on side streets or streets like Duke/Weber/Charles/etc. Those streets could accomodate highrises with larger retail spaces. Just a thought.



I think that the failure of the condo massacre along the Gardiner has less to do with the fact that the buildings are tall, and more to do with the fact that there's very little mixture of uses, and huge obstacles for pedestrians to overcome in trying to connect to adjacent neighbourhoods.

I too think we can have a bit of both, and I think we're on the right track with the mixed use corridor zoning. Streets like Charles, Duke and Weber don't have this zoning though, and should.

[benjaminbach]

I'm putting my vote squarely in the camp of less height. Would Downtown be better off had this project been spread across 3 or 4 blocks at 5 to 8 stories?

While this may look visually appealing, it would be unrealistic. It would mean assembling another 2-3 blocks of downtown city, with lower density on each block.
That adds up to a lethal combination of higher land assembly costs and a smaller number of units to develop, sell & profit from - a lower return for the developer and the investors. That means they may take their capital somewhere else, where they can build what the market wants.

I'm not advocating building everything up to the maximum - I enjoy my almost rural KW living as much as the next guy - but you would have a hard time getting a developer (at least one that you want contributing a major piece to your city's downtown) if you were only letting them build half as many units on land that still cost $x.

[bcwessel]

Why not have a bit of both?

I think the main factor that makes areas like the Annex and College West vibrant and interesting places has less to do with their height, and more the fact that you have fine-grain (narrow and frequent storefronts) retail continuously lining the streets and more of a 24/7 streetlife. Bay street just gets hectic during work hours and empties out after 5pm and on weekends. And other than the entrances of a bunch of banking towers, with the odd coffee shop here and there, what is there on street level? There's malls underground, but a mall is still a mall at the end of the day.

We already have King street as a street with fine-grain retail. Perhaps we could model the 'mixed-use corridors' in a similar fashion. And perhaps the height and large quantities of employees and residents could be focused more on side streets or streets like Duke/Weber/Charles/etc. Those streets could accomodate highrises with larger retail spaces. Just a thought.
think that the failure of the condo massacre along the Gardiner has less to do with the fact that the buildings are tall, and more to do with the fact that there's very little mixture of uses, and huge obstacles for pedestrians to overcome in trying to connect to adjacent neighbourhoods.

I agree with everything that you're saying, which is why I think it's very important for us to continually re-evaluate what shape we want Downtown to take. I've noticed a somewhat disturbing trend in this thread (and others) which closely mirrors the rhetoric which has led to Toronto's recent condo explosion -- which just happens to closely resemble the rhetoric which led to the truly awful suburban towers of the 60s and 70s. The discussion often begins and ends with "the higher the better" without any consideration for the positive and negative impacts of those extra floors. For me personally, I don't like the inevitable disconnect that occurs between the tops of skyscrapers and the street life below, and I don't like the sense of alienation produced by walking through a neighbour that is too tall.

That being said, I certainly think we can have both high-rise and mid-rise development, and that when done properly both types of development can contribute to a vibrant core. I just get a little weary when every future development wish is for more height, and when every expression of a missed opportunity seems to lament there not being enough floors.

[plam]

I agree with everything that you're saying, which is why I think it's very important for us to continually re-evaluate what shape we want Downtown to take. I've noticed a somewhat disturbing trend in this thread (and others) which closely mirrors the rhetoric which has led to Toronto's recent condo explosion -- which just happens to closely resemble the rhetoric which led to the truly awful suburban towers of the 60s and 70s. The discussion often begins and ends with "the higher the better" without any consideration for the positive and negative impacts of those extra floors. For me personally, I don't like the inevitable disconnect that occurs between the tops of skyscrapers and the street life below, and I don't like the sense of alienation produced by walking through a neighbour that is too tall.

It's probably best to have a mix of heights. However, one problem I've heard with tall residential buildings is that people live there but don't really contribute to the area: they just drive off to wherever they work or want to hang out ("space aliens"). I do not think that Kitchener/Waterloo has that problem, since there aren't really that many places that space aliens could drive off to. I'd therefore hope that the space aliens would spill out onto the local streets. This could be especially easy if downtown Kitchener goes more upscale.

I can definitely imagine space aliens for the buildings along the 401; who'd want to walk along the street there?

Now, tall commercial buildings are a different problem, since people don't stay there after working hours, so you have the deserted-downtown problem that occurs in many US cities.

[smably]

I'm putting my vote squarely in the camp of less height. Would Downtown be better off had this project been spread across 3 or 4 blocks at 5 to 8 stories? This is a subjective question, but I feel it's one upon which we should all continually reflect as the area continues to fill back up.
Honestly, I also prefer developments of that height. On the other hand, I would not have wanted a single development spread over three or four blocks, no matter the height. Even the size of the centre block property worries me a bit. Any larger and I'd be concerned about creating a monoculture.

Overall, though, I firmly believe this development is a positive thing, just for the sheer number of people it will bring to downtown. And the urban design is good too. Street-fronting retail, human-scale podium, underground parking, LEED certified, and the perfect location.

It's also a vote of confidence in downtown Kitchener. I don't think you can underestimate the importance of that.

[Floor2012]

Did anyone post the floorplans? I can't find them. Have the prices increased since they started? I registered a long time ago, but haven't received an invite to the presentation centre. Someone said they are inviting registrants in groups of ten. If you just show up, will they let you inside?

[jay]

You need a appointment to show up. They have sold a bunch already.. Urban posted a floor plan of a 780sq/ft unit a page or two back.

[BuildingScout]

Even the size of the centre block property worries me a bit. Any larger and I'd be concerned about creating a monoculture....It's also a vote of confidence in downtown Kitchener. I don't think you can underestimate the importance of that.

To add a data point, certain parts of downtown Seattle had become blighted, and were steadily decaying. A decade ago a developer bought an entire city square and placed three or four massive towers on it. This provided the critical mass needed for other business to start opening in that part of town and many other developments followed. Today this is no better or worse than any other central neighbourhood there.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Penthouse Floor Plans

16-17th Floor Layout
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses.jpg

1D-A | 650 sq ft + 40 sq ft Balcony = 690 sq ft | Floor Layout #7
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%201D-A%20Resized.jpg

2-J | 754 sq ft + 175 sq ft Balcony = 929 sq ft | Floor Layout #1
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202-J%20Resized.jpg

2-E | 765 sq ft + 130 sq ft Balcony = 895 sq ft | Floor Layout #5
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202-E%20Resized.jpg

2-I | 830 sq ft + 180 sq ft Balcony = 1010 sq ft | Floor Layout #9
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202-I%20Resized.jpg

2-K | 840 sq ft + 200 sq ft Balcony = 1040 sq ft | Floor Layout #4
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202-K%20Resized.jpg

2-F | 915 sq ft + 110 sq ft Balcony = 1025 sq ft | Floor Layout #2
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202-F%20Resized.jpg

2-F1 | 980 sq ft + 65 sq ft Balcony = 1045 sq ft | Floor Layout #8
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202-F1%20Resized.jpg

2D-D | 1075 sq ft + 135 sq ft Balcony = 1210 sq ft | Floor Layout #6
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202D-D%20Resized.jpg

2D-C | 1150 sq ft + 85/170 sq ft Balcony = 1405 sq ft | Floor Layout #3
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/Floor%20Plans/Penthouses/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%202%2C%202010%20-%20Floor%20Plans%20-%20Penthouses%20-%202D-C%20Resized.jpg

[Greg Moore]

I went on Wednesday at 4:00 and asked if they would combine units. They took my info and said they would call me back within two days. No word yet so nothing they say I can trust now. No phone call even to say "we're working on it".

I also asked about penthouses and they said there was only one unit left. I hardly believe that. Maybe one unit they are releasing right now but I highly doubt the penthouses are all sold save one.

Not a good experience. Another sales job where the easy sales and bullshit promises take precedent.

[jay]

I don't blame you for being frustrated. That's some poor service.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Sorry to hear you didn't get a return call. I can back up their statement though that the penthouses are mostly sold. There's only 9 suites on the 17th floor and I've bought one with a friend, my folks bought one, another friend grabbed one & I know of someone else and his parents who each bought one too. That's 5 known units sold so it doesn't surprise me another three have sold as well.

They're selling because:

1) the small down-payment (it's not $100K down which stalled initial sales at 144 Park)
2) the relatively small size and therefore price (these aren't $600K)
3) the fact this building is years away from occupancy (the longer you have to wait the more potential there is for an increase in value)

What will push up the value of these units?

1) LRT (not having to own a car means you can spend more on housing)
2) Increased Downtown Employment (Google, Consolidated Courthouse)
3) Improved Design & Attractions (King Street Streetscape, THEMUSEUM)
4) Retail (the weakest link so far, but I'm hoping things have changed 5 years from now)
5) More Downtown Residents (Arrow Lofts, 30-40 Margaret Avenue, 66 Weber Street East... this should help to fix #4 as well)

[urbandreamer]

^Or close proximity to Greyhound--quick escape to civilization in Toronto.:D

[DHLawrence]

And GO Transit!

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

^Or close proximity to Greyhound--quick escape to civilization in Toronto.:D

And of course, we can always rely on urbandreamer to make such a comment. :RpS_wink:

[plam]

^Or close proximity to Greyhound--quick escape to civilization in Toronto.:D

I wouldn't exactly call Greyhound quick, e.g. it once took them 3+ hours to transport me to Toronto. Too bad I only allocated 2.5 hours between departure time from Kitchener and train departure time from Union Station.

[garthdanlor]

I wouldn't exactly call Greyhound quick, e.g. it once took them 3+ hours to transport me to Toronto. Too bad I only allocated 2.5 hours between departure time from Kitchener and train departure time from Union Station.

Ditto, Greyhound can't really be considered a quick escape when it goes through Guelph...expresses aren't too bad though.

[KevinL]

Ditto, Greyhound can't really be considered a quick escape when it goes through Guelph...expresses aren't too bad though.

I never take the Guelph bus if I can help it - may as well take the GO bus and save over half the price!

The Express is worth it; a day trip on Same Day Return is very reasonable.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Note: the sales package now has a better presentation format in book form.


October 16, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City Centre Condominiums/City Centre Condominiums - October 16, 2010 Resized.JPG

[neonjoe]

In any case, what downtown needs is a regular grocery store, like an urban-format Sobey's. I would've figured there might be a market for something higher end, but since Vincenzo's has already established itself down the road, I think it's highly unlikely for quite some time.
I just saw that Sobeys opened their first Urban FreshCO this weekend at Dundas and Parliament in Toronto. It appears to be on the main floor of a condo development. A format like this may thrive downtown, lower prices but still with ethnic foods and enough varieties to give people choice. It actually looks quite nice and its a new building as on Streetview its still under construction.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs412.ash2/69025_153401561363661_111409358896215_214616_30497 50_n.jpg
If the image didn't work you can see it on their facebook page http://www.facebook.com/freshco

[jay]

I know somebody who works in Sobeys and these urban stores are having a hard time making profit due to the demands of the ethnic population.

[SP!RE]

That Regent Park project above, One Cole, looks a fair bit like the42 we're getting Uptown. Hehe.

Anyways, to be more on topic: I wouldn't expect a grocery store at this project for downtown Kitchener, or at least only a small one.

[Spokes]

That Regent Park project above, One Cole, looks a fair bit like the42 we're getting Uptown. Hehe.

Anyways, to be more on topic: I wouldn't expect a grocery store at this project for downtown Kitchener, or at least only a small one.

No it's not happening at all, the retail spaces are too small. The comments just came from the fact that there is a need for a grocery store in the core.

[KayDubya]

^Or close proximity to Greyhound--quick escape to civilization in Toronto.:DTo each his own. Some people also considered the Planet of the Apes a civilization.:RpS_tongue:

I wish I could buy one of these units but it's not going to happen. They look to be a great investment because the price of downtown properties is only going to rise.

Perhaps UrbanWaterloo and his friends and/or family will rent me one of their units.:RpS_thumbsup:

[jay]

Maybe they can put a smaller grocery store in the bottom of this development. You would think it would do well.

[Spokes]

Maybe they can put a smaller grocery store in the bottom of this development. You would think it would do well.

Im sure it would. As far as I know its a number of smaller retail units though rather than the single bigger one that would be required.

[Shawn]

Im sure it would. As far as I know its a number of smaller retail units though rather than the single bigger one that would be required.

It's a shame there's not already a "regular" grocery store (Zehrs, Sobey's, A&P etc) downtown because personally I would love to see the addition of an upscale grocery store such as Urban Fare (http://www.urbanfare.com/home.html). However, I wouldn't want to see that instead of a regular grocery store since I know Urban Fare would only appeal to a certain clientele, and you're not going to shop there for your daily pantry items.

[Spokes]

It's a shame there is not already a "regular" grocery store downtown because personally I would love to see the addition of an upscale grocery store such as Urban Fare (http://www.urbanfare.com/home.html). However, I wouldn't want to see that instead of a regular grocery store.

Ya there definitely needs to be a regular one before an upscale one. I think an urban format store could substitute quite well though.

[KevinL]

I was just thinking back and I remembered the last time there was a full-service mainstream grocery store downtown - the Dutch Boy at King and Gaukel.

Yes, where Civic Square is now - the land was expropriated for City Hall. The business moved across the street (ironically, to where David's was the most recent tenant) but that was far smaller and gradually got downgraded to, essentially, a large convenience store.

And also thinking back, I think one reason that there hasn't been a customer base for such a business is partly due to the loss of employment in the area - when Lang and Epton and Kaufman (among numerous others) all shut down, a lot of workers who'd go shopping after their shifts were no longer around.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Perhaps UrbanWaterloo and his friends and/or family will rent me one of their units.:RpS_thumbsup:

I can't say that for sure, but what I do know is we'll have a party up there in a few years and give everyone a tour of the building. :RpS_cool:

[urbandreamer]

Any updates on how it's selling?

[panamaniac]

Any updates on how it's selling?

Well, I'm one sale they won't be getting - I registered and then sent an e-mail weeks ago asking for floor plans and prices and never heard back.

[benjaminbach]

I registered and then sent an e-mail weeks ago asking for floor plans and prices and never heard back.

they are only providing that info during appointments at the sales centre

[mikeyp]

Any updates on how it's selling?

I have an appointment with them tomorrow. I'll try and find out.

[Waterlooer]

Wow, lots of condominiums going up in K/W! Really makes the cities look fancy

[jay]

I'm curious on how many units that are not "investor" units are selling without a parking spot. Even if you didn't want one personally, it would make sense to buy one for re-sale value and you could always rent it out for around $100/month.

[panamaniac]

I'm curious on how many units that are not "investor" units are selling without a parking spot. Even if you didn't want one personally, it would make sense to buy one for re-sale value and you could always rent it out for around $100/month.

You might be able to rent to another condo owner/occupant, but most condos would not allow rental to outsiders, so the market might be a bit limited. I would think it makes more sense to take the parking, if you have eventual resale in mind.

[mikeyp]

I just came back from the sales centre and the salesman there told me that after 2 weeks the building is 15% sold. Impressive considering they're only selling even number floors right now. I also find it interesting that there won't really be any upgrades availabe for the units because every unit is coming standard with stainless steel appliances and granite countertops and high end everything. Looks like they're definately going all out with this building and aiming for a higher end clientele.

[panamaniac]

Was it clear that it was 15% of the building sold or was it 15% of the units available for sale at the moment?

[jay]

What is actually considered high end can be taken in a few different ways. I own a Bauer Loft and everything came with granite and everything also (expect stainless appliances). What a builder considers high end and what you/me consider high end is usually different. I doubt they offer high end granite, etc... Call me a skeptic but I've been I've been down this road before.

I have not seen what is being offered so I will hold my opinion until I see the showroom, but my family almost purchased a unit at 144 Park and we were not too impressed by the standard finishes. I doubt this building offers better. Just saying :). I'm glad to see it is selling well. I know the lady in charge of financing for the building, so I will update with sales as they happen.

[mikeyp]

Ok true, "high end" can be a relative term. Yes, I doubt they'll be putting in $3000 fridges and stoves but it is safe to assume that it will be considerably nicer than laminate counter tops and plain white cupboards.

As for weather it was 15% of all the units or just the ones on sale I'm not sure. I asked how many of the units have been sold so far and he told me 15%. Either way there's still lots for everyone except for penthouses. There's oly 1 left on the 17th floor.

[diego]

I was hoping for this building to offer more variety in terms of unit sizes and pricing, a more 'mixed-income' development would do wonders to downtown... It's interesting, because from what I've seen in the Bauer Lofts for example is that even if it is expensive, there are many students, young professionals, seniors and families living in the same building. It's an interesting mix that creates a very good sense of community.

[Shawn]

15% sold! If that's 15% of the entire building (and not just 15% of the first release of floors) I'm even more impressed! I also found out just last week about the stainless steel appliances and looked at the 3 standard "finishes" and was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the flooring and the tiles. Not overly impressed with the colour selection, but you can't please everyone, right? ;)

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Either way there's still lots for everyone except for penthouses. There's oly 1 left on the 17th floor.

Wow, penthouses are usually last to sell. That's a good sign!

[jay]

They were cheaper than usual that is why they sold faster... Smart move by Andrin.

[Spokes]

I was hoping for this building to offer more variety in terms of unit sizes and pricing, a more 'mixed-income' development would do wonders to downtown... It's interesting, because from what I've seen in the Bauer Lofts for example is that even if it is expensive, there are many students, young professionals, seniors and families living in the same building. It's an interesting mix that creates a very good sense of community.

I think we could still see mixed income here, but that will happen when investors rent out units.

[Spokes]

They were cheaper than usual that is why they sold faster... Smart move by Andrin.

I agree!!

[Greg Moore]

I also find it interesting that there won't really be any upgrades availabe for the units because every unit is coming standard with stainless steel appliances and granite countertops and high end everything.
At the presentation I was at, the one bedroom units were to get black appliances and the two bedroom and penthouse units would get stainless. Maybe that changed.

I ended up investing at Park St. Right now, I think it's a better deal.

[benjaminbach]

I ended up investing at Park St. Right now, I think it's a better deal.

Hey Greg, just curious what made you feel 144 Park was a better deal? Was it location, prestige, projected rents being higher, etc?

Thx

[Greg Moore]

Hey Greg, just curious what made you feel 144 Park was a better deal? Was it location, prestige, projected rents being higher, etc? Thx
There are many things at this point that makes me feel it is a good deal and not limited to:

price per sqft. I paid $340, whereas depending on the unit at CC, they are up to $370 including parking and locker*
assured it will be built by 90%+ units being sold
timing. Who knows when CC will have occupancy
across the street from Vincenzo's and Bauer Kitchen
the area around King & Allen is ripe for more big development
in building amenities
availability of bigger units
proximity to Sunlife for rentability


If you want a bigger town feel, City Center will be surrounded by more, but downtown is still a few years away from that. I mean more within a few steps, not a few blocks.

With Bauer next door to 144 Park, it's already desirable. I really like that Vincenzo's and Bauer Kitchen are across the street. I think that will appeal to a lot of people who desire condo living.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with City Center. it will be desirable too, but for me, it's not the best match.

*$340 is about the going rate for a Bauer unit right now.

[mikeyp]

At the presentation I was at, the one bedroom units were to get black appliances and the two bedroom and penthouse units would get stainless. Maybe that changed.

I ended up investing at Park St. Right now, I think it's a better deal.

From what the sales rep told me and from the features and floorplan book they gave me it says Whirlpool (or equivalent) stainless steel appliance package to include Energy Star Refridgerator, self cleaning oven, over the range microwave/hood and multi-cycle dishwasher in all one bedroom and one bedroom + den suites.

The two bedroom and penthouse suites are to to get stainless as well but with a fridge that has a bottom mount freezer and a stove with a smooth top electric range.

[UrbanWaterloo]

October 24, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%2024,%202010%20-%202%20Resized.JPG

[FancyNancy]

I have purchased a two bedroom unit on the 17th floor as an investment property. The longer it takes until the condo is finished the better it is for my investment. I am hoping that the downtown gets a reno by the time it is completed! My guess is 5+ years. I am looking forward to going through the model suites once it is completed. The standard selection was comparable to other condos offered in the area. I hope Kitchener gets the same kind of look going for it that Waterloo has. :RpS_smile:

I hope the LRT goes through! This will make a huge impact on the area and condo prices.

[UrbanWaterloo]

October 31, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%2031,%202010%20-%203b%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%2031,%202010%20-%201a%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20October%2031,%202010%20-%205b%20Resized.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

November 3, 2010

This structure is coming together quickly, check out the roof & eastern side.
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20November%203,%202010%20-%201%20Resized.JPG

[benjaminbach]

If you're interested in a unit and want to get into the sales centre, just let me know. I can bring you through without going through the standard appointment process.

[UrbanWaterloo]

November 18, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/SAM_3031%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/SAM_3035%20Resized.jpg

[PMoney]

Does anyone have an update on how sales are going?

[benjaminbach]

I got a firm number from Andrin & PMA when I met with them earlier this week, but I was asked not to repeat it. They are happy with how sales are going.

[panamaniac]

Interesting. One would expect developers to make strong sales numbers as public as possible. Heck, I would normally expect them to issue "optimistic" sales numbers, to build a sense of scarcity and encourage quicker sales.

[markster]

Anything less than 50% could theoretically give bad optics. Sew a seed of "why aren't people buying?", when there just hasn't been enough time yet.

[UrbanWaterloo]

November 26, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20November%2026,%202010%20Resized.JPG

[jay]

I'm excited to see how the suites are designed for this project. I think it's smart that they decided to show 2 different models.

[UrbanWaterloo]

I hear they're up to 44 units sold now! :RpS_biggrin: That's pretty impressive when you consider: A) marketing hasn't even really begun; B) some floors aren't even available yet (ie. #16). The entire 17th floor is sold.

Showroom Brick - December 11, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20December%2011,%202010%20-%201a%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20December%2011,%202010%20-%203b%20Resized.jpg

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

How many units are in the first phase?

[UrbanWaterloo]

There are 244 units in Phase 1.

[cambridge-city-boy]

oh wow this look amazing, I hope the proposal goes through. :)

[Spokes]

oh wow this look amazing, I hope the proposal goes through. :)

It's already approved, they just need to sell them now.

[panamaniac]

Does anyone know if the podium along Duke and Young streets contains any commercial space or is it going to be entirely residential?

[Spokes]

Does anyone know if the podium along Duke and Young streets contains any commercial space or is it going to be entirely residential?

No retail. It's my understanding that its all residential and that the parking might be partially exposed. That part though Im not 100% on.

[urbandreamer]

Only 44 units out of 244 have sold? That's a poor showing--in Toronto, by this stage in the launch at least 30-45% would've sold. I'd say this project may have to be rethought, perhaps with more of a Momentum style scale. Does this building even fit the King St vibe? I'd argue no, it's better suited to Weber St or elsewhere.

[markster]

Only 44 units out of 244 have sold? That's a poor showing--in Toronto, by this stage in the launch at least 30-45% would've sold.
How does it compare to other condo projects in KW?
Toronto is much more familiar/comfortable with condos than KW. It's a new thing here, and I could understand people waiting for a show room first.

[Shawn]

I think it's pretty respectable considering the sales office is not open and so far it's been pre-registered people and by appointment only.

That's 18% of the building without really trying. I look forward to seeing the sales spike once the show room opens in January.

[Spokes]

Ya Shawn makes a really important point. The sales office hasn't even opened, so I think it's a little too soon to judge.

[panamaniac]

I hope you are right, Shawn and Spokes - there is an awful lot riding on this one being successful. Fortunately, there is not a lot of competition Downtown (yet), so I am still hopeful for phase one.

[BMB]

Hi
We purchased one of the units. Does anyone know when they are giving out the iPads?
I thought it was going to be this week - but didn't hear from anyone yet?
Yes - I can't wait for the iPad - so excited.

[UrbanWaterloo]

The iPads are being purchased through a different distributor now so we'll have to wait until the new year. Although a nice gift, I still wish we could swap for a PlayBook instead.

December 20, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20December%2020,%202010%20-%201a%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/City%20Centre%20Condominiums%20-%20December%2020,%202010%20-%202%20Resized.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

Windows...


December 31, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/006%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Kitchener/City%20Centre%20Condominiums/008%20Resized.jpg

[jay]

I like how Andrin is actually sinking some money into there model. Gives off a good vibe to potential buyers.