IDEA: Alexandra/Caroline with Park Connection

[bzmwillemsen]

So with all of this new construction around the Erb and Caroline intersection comes a lot more traffic to the area.
Currently to get south into Kitchener from the Erb/Caroline intersection you have only two options: King or Park.
But the trip to Park St is quite annoying and isn't very well used.
As of right now the only infrastructure added to accommodate the volume is a yield sign to turn onto William from Park and a dedicated turning lane to turn onto Park from William.

Although my plan does opt for the removal of parking I think eventually with all of the new volume from The BarrelYards and The Centre this implementation will be more helpful than more parking spaces.

Here are some Pros & Cons of this plan that I see, and would love to see some others:
Pros:
No building relocation
Able to accommodate LRT
Implementation of Roundabouts in UpTown (I <3 Roundabouts)
Avoidance of at least 1 light to get to Park St.

Cons:
Removal of Parking



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff482/bzmwillemsen/William-Caroline.png

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff482/bzmwillemsen/William-CarolineLRT.png
LRT - With LRT implemented the tracks will have to be moved to the other side of Caroline for this to work the LRT system would need to moved to the other side of the road at the Erb and Caroline intersection and the stop would have to be moved to the other side as well.


Roundabout descriptions:

A- This roundabout is quite large and gives the option to exit onto Caroline, New Park, Alexandra and into the parking lot.

B- This roundabout is optional to the design and is mostly implemented for ease of use to avoid a sharp corner.

P.S. Thanks so much for your input you guys have been wonderful!

[Waterlooer]

Great idea!

[Trogdor]

I don't like the New Park exit. Not only does it seem a bit confusing, but it takes up lots of valuable land that could be used for redevelopment.

Otherwise, I'm not opposed, but I just don't think it's worth the expense of tearing up Caroline again. It was just redone after all!

[Spokes]

Don't like the idea. As Trogdor said, it wastes a ton of valuable land. Some of it already owned by a developer with plans to build on it. So that automatically rules that plot of land out.

In theory it's the right idea, but does it really help traffic flow THAT much. What would that save in time from uptown to downtown, a couple minutes? And it's just making it easier for people to drive. Isn't that what we're trying to move away from?

While we'll see increased traffic volume with these new developments, people need to realize, that's what happens when cities grow. You get traffic. The solution is better transportation options. While improved roads are one of them, they aren't that great of a solution long term as they just become more and more congested with time.

[mpd618]

Two roundabouts and a light at William do not seem to me to be an easier route than one light at William and one easy yield turn. I'm also not sure that there is a problem that needs solving here.

[markster]

Those roundabouts seem fairly superfluous. Either just realign the street and be done with it, or convert the William/Caroline intersection into a small rounabout to alleviate the queueing that happens at that light.

[IEFBR14]

one easy yield turn
My experience as someone who lives nearby and who walks and drives along there regularly is that the yield (right turn from Park northbound to William eastbound) is anything but easy.
1. All to many people turning right come to a full stop rather than yield. Yes there's a yield sign there. But people seem to think it should be a stop, so they stop. They seem to come to a full stop there than they do at most STOP-signed stops. Go figure.
2. In some cases this is compounded by the bozos who want to turn left who creep so far north into William that they obscure the ability of anyone who wants to turn right to see if there's anything coming their way on William. That also used to make it much harder to turn left on William onto Park. The reworked intersection seems to have helped on that front.
3. It's unsafe for pedestrians who want to cross William from the east side of Park because that's the last thing "yielding" right-turners look for.
4. It's unsafe for pedestrians who want to cross William from the west side of Park because it's never clear if someone who's heading west on William is turning left at Park or heading straight through. In part that's because few people signal their turns, partly because some people can't be bothered to use the left turn lane and partly because there's not even painted white lines across William to tell car drivers that it's a pedestrian crossing. (When the nearby school was open there was a marked pedestrian crossing there and IIRC even a warning sign. As soon as the school closed the city got rid of it as if only school children needed it. Wrong. Soon after a careless driver hit my mom and severely broke her arm. We complained. Years later there's still no safe pedestrian crossing there.)

[bzmwillemsen]

Otherwise, I'm not opposed, but I just don't think it's worth the expense of tearing up Caroline again. It was just redone after all!
Thanks! And sadly I do know it was just redone, but sadly it's going to get torn up again for LRT.


Some of it already owned by a developer with plans to build on it. So that automatically rules that plot of land out.
Damn, foiled again.


Those roundabouts seem fairly superfluous. Either just realign the street and be done with it, or convert the William/Caroline intersection into a small rounabout to alleviate the queueing that happens at that light.
I thought of simply adding a roundabout at Caroline and William, but with the current LRT plans and with the size of the intersection it doesn't seem very viable to put a roundabout there.



Thanks for the feedback!

[bzmwillemsen]

My experience as someone who lives nearby and who walks and drives along there regularly is that the yield (right turn from Park northbound to William eastbound) is anything but easy.
1. All to many people turning right come to a full stop rather than yield. Yes there's a yield sign there. But people seem to think it should be a stop, so they stop. They seem to come to a full stop there than they do at most STOP-signed stops. Go figure.
2. In some cases this is compounded by the bozos who want to turn left who creep so far north into William that they obscure the ability of anyone who wants to turn right to see if there's anything coming their way on William. That also used to make it much harder to turn left on William onto Park. The reworked intersection seems to have helped on that front.
3. It's unsafe for pedestrians who want to cross William from the east side of Park because that's the last thing "yielding" right-turners look for.
4. It's unsafe for pedestrians who want to cross William from the west side of Park because it's never clear if someone who's heading west on William is turning left at Park or heading straight through. In part that's because few people signal their turns, partly because some people can't be bothered to use the left turn lane and partly because there's not even painted white lines across William to tell car drivers that it's a pedestrian crossing. (When the nearby school was open there was a marked pedestrian crossing there and IIRC even a warning sign. As soon as the school closed the city got rid of it as if only school children needed it. Wrong. Soon after a careless driver hit my mom and severely broke her arm. We complained. Years later there's still no safe pedestrian crossing there.)

I do agree, I pass through the William/Park intersection daily and I wish that people would learn to use this as a yield instead of a stop.

And crossing that intersection as a pedestrian is very annoying and unsafe, especially for children and the elderly.

[urbandreamer]

Bad idea. Very anti urban for starters. Secondly, that school iirc has been transformed into nice lofts==what loft owner would want a roundabout so close by?

A better idea, and kills 2 birds with one stone: Knock down that hideous townhouse development then make Caroline and Park St one way streets between John and William; replace hideous townies and all surface lots with intense 6-8s condo with retail buildings.

[Trogdor]

Knock down that hideous townhouse development

Haha that's so funny. My friends and I actually call those townhouses mud city because they're so ridiculous. If I had the ability to reverse one decision made in Waterloo in terms of development it would be those townhouses. They literally kill all chances of having a built-up downtown because you can only build on King. Those houses are probably worth like 500k a piece now too so there's no way they're leaving. *Deep breath* That's the end of my rant.

[Greg Moore]

In 20 years, those will be gone. That land is going to be really valuable soon. In five years that area will have another 500 people living on Allen St from Park St to King St.