What Does Downtown Need?

[Spokes]

What Does Downtown Need?

So in response to the article that Leaffan posted (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/123-General-Food-Retail-News?p=4352#post4352) (Local group looks at new downtown Kitchener retail strategy (http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/696478)) I thought I'd see what people on Wonderful Waterloo thought that downtown Kitchener needed.

So post the 5 things that you think downtown needs. These can be either general things or specific businesses.

[Spokes]

Here's my list:


Grocery Store
Movie Theatre
Clothing stores you'd typically see in the mall (to draw people out of the mall)
More restaurants
MEC (my personal choice)

[IEFBR14]

MEC (my personal choice)

I've been trying for years to get MEC to open a store in K-W. They don't seem to see the market despite the two universities, community college, high tech employees with time and money to burn, etc. Any idea how well Cindy at Webco Sports is doing with the outdoors department of her store?

BTW did you know that Adventure Guide started at about the same time as MEC? They were originally a branch of the Goolaks co-op out of Eganville in the Ottawa Valley. Adventure Guide's first store was actually in downtown Kitchener. Later there were other Goolaks stores in Kingston and Toronto. The co-op failed (for unrelated reasons) at which point the two owners (Shawn and another guy whose name I forget) became Adventure Guide. Their original Waterloo store was on King, just north of University. (IIRC where Bhimas Warung is now located.) They subsequently moved up the street to their current location.

[smably]

1. Grocery store
2. Grocery store
3. Grocery store
4. A proper central post office
5. Some sort of cinema -- preferably an independent one

I'm not sure we could support a MEC (though I would really love to have one here, no doubt). There's already one in Burlington and of course Toronto. I think a location in London would make more sense than KW, actually. Also, there is no way Adventure Guide would be able to compete with them if they opened up here.

[Spokes]

Any idea how well Cindy at Webco Sports is doing with the outdoors department of her store?

Last time I talked to her she said so far it was going quite well. They've got some cool stuff in the upstairs part of the store where all the outdoor stuff is, but I feel like not a lot of people know about it.

[Spokes]

1. Grocery store
2. Grocery store
3. Grocery store
4. A proper central post office
5. Some sort of cinema -- preferably an independent one

I'm not sure we could support a MEC (though I would really love to have one here, no doubt). There's already one in Burlington and of course Toronto. I think a location in London would make more sense than KW, actually. Also, there is no way Adventure Guide would be able to compete with them if they opened up here.

Hey smalby, do you want a grocery store? ;)

Ya I dont think they'd be able to compete either. I think given our population growth and London's lack of growth, we'd be a better choice.

I wouldn't worry about Burlington being close. They never thought they'd get one there because of their proximity to the Toronto location but they did.

[DHLawrence]

The apartments above stores need to be more pleasant to live in. Some property owners are working on this, but apartments in downtown multi-use buildings can certainly be sketchy.

[Spokes]

I agree. I read in an article that the city has a program to entice property owners to fix up the upper levels and convert them to apartments. Not sure how many are taking advantage of that. It looks like the one's next to Centre Block above Casablanca book store are decent.

[UrbanWaterloo]

1. Roof-Top Patios

2. Movie Theatre
3. Boutique Clothing Shops (carrying Parasuco, Ben Sherman, Karv, etc..)
4. Grocery Store (Sobeys Express)

5. Re-establishing A Large Department Store (which I'd love to be Simons). I also realize this isn't practical this decade, but more of a 2020's strategy.

In General: Longer Operating Hours

[taylortbb]

1. Full-size grocery store (Urban Fresh locations are great, but I see them as being like convenience stores, they complement full grocery stores)
2. Movie Theater showing first-run movies (Dinner and a movie is great, but the Conestoga Mall food court is hardly a good dinner)
3. Restaurants to make their presence better known (signage, lighting, etc) There's a lot downtown but you wouldn't know it from looking.
4. Better operating hours.
5. Unique retail attractions, MEC would be an excellent example

[garthdanlor]

1. Proper non-chain pubs that serve craft & cask ale. Preferably one moves in to replace the execrable Bobby O'Briens.
2. Indie movie theatre.
3. Decent sized grocery.
4. I'll echo the clothing shop w/ Ben Sherman, Fred Perry, etc.
5. Decent small-mid sized concert venue/club (not bloody country!)

[DHLawrence]

A department store downtown would be nice. Budd's doesn't quite fit the bill. Maybe if The Museum one day moves into a custom-designed building (an idea that's been thrown around before) they can move into the Goudies site. Bonus marks if they keep some of the Museum's atrium intact. Maybe one day Kitchener or Waterloo will be affluent enough to warrant a Holt Renfrew?

[Urbanomicon]

5. Decent small-mid sized concert venue/club (not bloody country!)

I would love for Kitchener to get a small/medium concert venue. We used to have Lulu's which closed about 15 years ago near Sportsworld and the Lyric which was a few buildings away from what is now Elements. Both of these were great concert venues. It annoys me that I have to go to Toronto/Hamilton/London to see virtually every concert, save for a few that play at the Aud/Bluesfest/TBRTB.

[DKsan]

Actually, I'm a bit surprised. We do get quite a bit of musical artists that come through KW, but they all end going to Starlight/Elements/Bomber.

If we're talking about express grocery stores, the last time I went the downtown Shopper's Drug Mart, it looked like they were trying to implement something to that extent.

I agree with the need for a better department store and an indie theatre. Maybe the Princess Triplet? xD

[panamaniac]

1. Grocery store of any description, failing which a butcher, specialty cheese shop and/or fruit and veg shop.
2. Movie theatre (if Capitol, Odeon or Lyric could ever be converted back ...)
3. Hardware store, like a small Home Hardware
4. Murale (in the old Shopper's location?)
5. A department store would be fantastic, although the Bay or Sears would seem more likely than a Simons (I can't see Waterloo Region's ample posteriors squeezing into Simons' Euro-twink fashions!)

If I could add others, I'd love to see some art galleries or antique shops open up in some of the empty storefronts - something to make Downtown more of a destination.

[RangersFan]

1)The big one for me is a dream, but a state of the art replacement for the Aud Downtown would be totally awesom.
2) I would also like to see some more afforadble housing/condos in the Downtown area.
3) like others have said a grocery store or an expanded Kitchener Market that was complete to the extent of a grocery store stocked by local suppliers.

[garthdanlor]

I would also like to see some more afforadble housing/condos in the Downtown area.
I think that's a very important point. We need to ensure that there is new housing developments for all income levels, especially those at the lower end as they often get displaced when these new condo developments go up.

[Spokes]

Great ideas! UrbanWaterloo, I didnt even think about roof top patios, but you're right. They should definitely be included! I've always wondered about that little patio on top of the Conrad Centre for Performing Arts. Anyone know anything about it?

And I agree with Taylor, while the Urban format grocery stores are nice, I think having a full size, full service grocery store is important.

And yes, a downtown that doesn't close at 6pm.

Is the general consensus that an indie theatre is better than one that plays "mainstream" movies? I would have leaned towards something that didn't just do indies.

[Spokes]

1. Proper non-chain pubs that serve craft & cask ale. Preferably one moves in to replace the execrable Bobby O'Briens.
5. Decent small-mid sized concert venue/club (not bloody country!)

Yes! (or microbrewery) Yes!


3. Hardware store, like a small Home Hardware

Swanson's is already close to downtown and it's very popular and consistantly busy.

[garthdanlor]

Is the general consensus that an indie theatre is better than one that plays "mainstream" movies? I would have leaned towards something that didn't just do indies.
There is lots of competition for mainstream theatres elsewhere and not so much for the indie/rep. theatres (of course, there is The Princess). Also these theatres are much smaller so probably better suited to Downtown.

[Spokes]

There is lots of competition for mainstream theatres elsewhere and not so much for the indie/rep. theatres (of course, there is The Princess). Also these theatres are much smaller so probably better suited to Downtown.

Ya but you can have smaller yet still modern theatres that aren't of the indie variety. I personally think, and I dont have a problem with indie theatres, in fact I like them, that a full scale theatre is more of an amenity for the majority of people, and therefore would make downtown more of a destination.

[garthdanlor]

Yes! (or microbrewery) Yes!
Swanson's is already close to downtown and it's very popular and consistantly busy.

A micobrewery would do nicely!

I love having Swansons too....I was there today. Has saved me many trips to the burbs.

[Spokes]

A micobrewery would do nicely!

I love having Swansons too....I was there today. Has saved me many trips to the burbs.

Ya I hear ya, on both fronts. One of the things I have missed since being back in KW has been having multiple quality microbreweries. I like the beer at Heuther a lot, and would love to see something similar here as well.

[garthdanlor]

Ya but you can have smaller yet still modern theatres that aren't of the indie variety. I personally think, and I dont have a problem with indie theatres, in fact I like them, that a full scale theatre is more of an amenity for the majority of people, and therefore would make downtown more of a destination.

The two most recent mainstream theatre developments in the downtown (King's College & the Cineplex (can't remember exact name) had smaller screens (Cineplex much smaller) and didn't do very well for much the same reason everything else in the downtown began to fail (parking, competition in the burbs, etc.) so the mainstream theatres might be a little shy in returning. Hopefully, this will change as the population of Downtown/Uptown increases, as I still don't think you can rely on people regularly coming from the burbs to watch a film downtown. It would be nice though. I still remember the luxury of having a huge selection of theatres downtown up until the eighties/early nineties...King's College, Cineplex, the Lyric, the Capitol, the Odeon, the Cinema, the Highland, Frederick (some of these theatres had multiple screens). Did I miss any...

[Spokes]

Ya you make a good point about them being potentially uneasy at this point about opening up shop without the population base. When it's there though it could be something that comes which would be nice.

[IEFBR14]

Swanson's is already close to downtown and it's very popular and consistantly busy.
Nevertheless Ontario Seed manages to thrive in Uptown Waterloo even though two much larger HHs (Swanson's and Glenbriar) are just a short drive away. People who live in a downtown area, especially in condos and apartments, need a hardware store even if they don't necessarily need a home renovation center and/or lumber yard.

[panamaniac]

The two most recent mainstream theatre developments in the downtown (King's College & the Cineplex (can't remember exact name) had smaller screens (Cineplex much smaller) and didn't do very well for much the same reason everything else in the downtown began to fail (parking, competition in the burbs, etc.) so the mainstream theatres might be a little shy in returning. Hopefully, this will change as the population of Downtown/Uptown increases, as I still don't think you can rely on people regularly coming from the burbs to watch a film downtown. It would be nice though. I still remember the luxury of having a huge selection of theatres downtown up until the eighties/early nineties...King's College, Cineplex, the Lyric, the Capitol, the Odeon, the Cinema, the Highland, Frederick (some of these theatres had multiple screens). Did I miss any...

You forgot the Fox across King from Market Square. I think it was the first of that generation of theatres to close down.

[garthdanlor]

You forgot the Fox across King from Market Square. I think it was the first of that generation of theatres to close down.

Ah, I don't remember the Fox. The Cinema was also across from Market Square and around to the mid eighties, I think...did that replace the Fox?

[garthdanlor]

Nevertheless Ontario Seed manages to thrive in Uptown Waterloo even though two much larger HHs (Swanson's and Glenbriar) are just a short drive away. People who live in a downtown area, especially in condos and apartments, need a hardware store even if they don't necessarily need a home renovation center and/or lumber yard.
It's really hard for small hardware stores to survive these days. Ontario Seed has history on its side and a bit of a niche market so that keeps it going. Most of the other small hardware stores are gone...with HH in Frederick Mall closing, is the Pioneer Park location the last small HH in KW, or has it been expanded too?

Saying that, it would be handy to have a hardware shop right downtown, and I do remember one there sometime in the not-too-distant past (maybe near the Walper?), but I just can't see a new one surviving. At least, as a second best option, Swanson's is only a 5 minute or so walk from King & Victoria.

[DHLawrence]

There's still a small Home Hardware in Preston. It's a bit of a dive, to be honest; a one-storey building and it smells like fertilizer everywhere.

Ontario Seed has a second location in addition to the Waterloo store; they're also in Hamilton in what used to be Tregunno Seeds--a company with a history just as long.

[uptownfoodcritic]

Nothing will survive and the Kitchener downtown will not recover until the city figures out how to get another 3000+ people living within walking distance of the core.

Population density is the main thing holding downtown Kitchener back. Spend your money there and the rest will follow.

[Spokes]

Nothing will survive and the Kitchener downtown will not recover until the city figures out how to get another 3000+ people living within walking distance of the core.

Population density is the main thing holding downtown Kitchener back. Spend your money there and the rest will follow.

It's a catch 22 though right, people dont want to live in an area with nothing worthwhile around it, they want there to be things nearby. I guess businesses will open in residential developments (assuming they're mixed use).

[mpd618]

Three (transit) things downtown needs: Through-running of Route 7 with no detour into a terminal and no 5-10 minute stop in the middle of the run. Same thing for iXpress not going into the terminal, and with added stops at the Market and King & Victoria. And of course, sub-10 minute service on the iXpress.

Stuff within walking distance is the primary thing, but improving internal mobility and making downtown better accessible from other parts of Kitchener and Waterloo can contribute substantially.

[CompassRose]

I'd say not shutting down the main throughfare for "improvements" during the peak hours of the summer would go a long way to fixing the downtown. Kitchener shot its downtown in the head back when they built City Hall, and it still has not recovered. Any timid steps in that direction were crushed last year by the King Street closing. I figure this year's four month shutdown should take care of the rest and restore Kitchener Downtown to its proper smalltown Ontario state of blasted emptiness.

However, a cinema, a grocery store, and a decent department store (oh, a Holt Renfrew! How glorious that would be!) would make downtown more fun for me.

[garthdanlor]

I'd say not shutting down the main throughfare for "improvements" during the peak hours of the summer would go a long way to fixing the downtown. Kitchener shot its downtown in the head back when they built City Hall, and it still has not recovered. Any timid steps in that direction were crushed last year by the King Street closing. I figure this year's four month shutdown should take care of the rest and restore Kitchener Downtown to its proper smalltown Ontario state of blasted emptiness.
Which city hall? The current one or or the one by Market Square (Oxlea Tower)?. The current has been fairly successful, the other one was a disaster.

[Brenden]

Which city hall? The current one or or the one by Market Square (Oxlea Tower)?. The current has been fairly successful, the other one was a disaster.

Old city hall was where Market Square is now, what use to be where New City Hall is now? also Centure block is empty because of a fire right or was that just accross the road?

[Urbanomicon]

Old city hall was where Market Square is now, what use to be where New City Hall is now? also Centure block is empty because of a fire right or was that just accross the road?

As I recall, they city bought a number of properties in that block many years ago (including the Lyric Concert Hall), and demolished them to put in a parking lot.

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

Nothing will survive and the Kitchener downtown will not recover until the city figures out how to get another 3000+ people living within walking distance of the core.

Population density is the main thing holding downtown Kitchener back. Spend your money there and the rest will follow.

As much as it might help, I don't quite think that's it. I'm sure it's denser than uptown Waterloo and is probably one of the, if not the, densest districts in the region. It's not like there's abandoned houses and buildings all around the core like there are in a lot of American cities.

Now, more people with medium to high incomes might be a better expression.

Also, we need to, as a region, break the spell of auto-dependecy that truly holds back potential downtown and devotes too much space to surface parking and parking garages. But this is truly a chicken and egg scenario.

[garthdanlor]

Old city hall was where Market Square is now
A newer city hall @ oxlea tower was also on/near the site of the old city hall...

[CompassRose]

Which city hall? The current one or or the one by Market Square (Oxlea Tower)?. The current has been fairly successful, the other one was a disaster.
It's certainly successful as a City Hall, but I would definitely argue that Kitchener businesses have never got back to the variety and interest they had before this City Hall was built. And last year's King Street shutdown was certainly bad. I've been performing in Asphalt Jungle Shorts downtown for the last several years, and last year's was unpleasant - nobody on the street but us, our audience, a lot of very young kids roaming aggressively in gangs and blocking the walking routes for fun, and homeless people. Quite a few audience members reported feeling uncomfortable, said that they felt unsafe amongst the barricades and empty storefronts, and told us they'd never be downtown except for the fact that we led them around in a group. And I feel a big difference myself, walking alone downtown when it's open to cars and unbarricaded, versus not. It's much harder to avoid or escape unwanted accostation by people when you aren't in view of passing traffic, might not be in view of anyone else on the walkway, and can't see a clear exit path. I don't normally question whether I "should" walk anywhere at any time of the day, but I definitely planned my route and moved faster through Kitchener Downtown last year, day or night. And considering that I do a lot of things that most people seem to think are very risky for a woman alone, I can only imagine how other people might react.

[garthdanlor]

It's certainly successful as a City Hall, but I would definitely argue that Kitchener businesses have never got back to the variety and interest they had before this City Hall was built. And last year's King Street shutdown was certainly bad. I've been performing in Asphalt Jungle Shorts downtown for the last several years, and last year's was unpleasant - nobody on the street but us, our audience, a lot of very young kids roaming aggressively in gangs and blocking the walking routes for fun, and homeless people. Quite a few audience members reported feeling uncomfortable, said that they felt unsafe amongst the barricades and empty storefronts, and told us they'd never be downtown except for the fact that we led them around in a group. And I feel a big difference myself, walking alone downtown when it's open to cars and unbarricaded, versus not. It's much harder to avoid or escape unwanted accostation by people when you aren't in view of passing traffic, might not be in view of anyone else on the walkway, and can't see a clear exit path. I don't normally question whether I "should" walk anywhere at any time of the day, but I definitely planned my route and moved faster through Kitchener Downtown last year, day or night. And considering that I do a lot of things that most people seem to think are very risky for a woman alone, I can only imagine how other people might react.
I just don't see how the new city hall has negatively impacted Downtown. The downtown itself began it's downward trend 20 years before the new city hall was built when they tore down tore down the old city hall to build the Market Square complex in the early 70s. This trend accelerated through the late seventies and eighties as the suburban malls continued to suck the life out of the core. The new city hall's arrival in 1993 didn't save downtown, but it didn't hurt it either and continues to draw people downtown winter and summer due to the activities that take place in its main square. The frequency of closure of King St is another matter altogether.

[Spokes]

I'd say not shutting down the main throughfare for "improvements" during the peak hours of the summer would go a long way to fixing the downtown. Kitchener shot its downtown in the head back when they built City Hall, and it still has not recovered. Any timid steps in that direction were crushed last year by the King Street closing. I figure this year's four month shutdown should take care of the rest and restore Kitchener Downtown to its proper smalltown Ontario state of blasted emptiness.

However, a cinema, a grocery store, and a decent department store (oh, a Holt Renfrew! How glorious that would be!) would make downtown more fun for me.

The street closure, while it was bad for business, was necessary. Look at the end result. A street scape that looks amazing, one that people are definitely taking note of. In my mind, well worth it.

Businesses in phases one are already saying how much they like it.

[Spokes]

Also, we need to, as a region, break the spell of auto-dependecy that truly holds back potential downtown and devotes too much space to surface parking and parking garages. But this is truly a chicken and egg scenario.

Yup thats a big one, and it is region wide not just for downtown.

[panamaniac]

I just don't see how the new city hall has negatively impacted Downtown. The downtown itself began it's downward trend 20 years before the new city hall was built when they tore down tore down the old city hall to build the Market Square complex in the early 70s. ..........

I would suggest that the decline of downtown actually pre-dates the Oxlea project (Market Square). That project was pretty much driven by the desire to keep downtown going as a business/retail hub. It worked for a while, but was ultimately doomed (as was the King Centre as a shopping mall) by KW's incredibly suburban layout (to this day, they continue to build roads that make it easier to bypass downtown than to get to it). With hindsight, most people would probably say that it was a mistake to tear down the old City Hall, but had it remained, the rest of downtown would probably look much as it does today (sans the current City Hall, which I think is terrific).

[garthdanlor]

I would suggest that the decline of downtown actually pre-dates the Oxlea project (Market Square). That project was pretty much driven by the desire to keep downtown going as a business/retail hub. It worked for a while, but was ultimately doomed (as was the King Centre as a shopping mall) by KW's incredibly suburban layout (to this day, they continue to build roads that make it easier to bypass downtown than to get to it). With hindsight, most people would probably say that it was a mistake to tear down the old City Hall, but had it remained, the rest of downtown would probably look much as it does today (sans the current City Hall, which I think is terrific).
Yes, you are quite likely correct. Even though the downtown remained fairly bustling throughout the 70s, the seeds for decline were probably planted with the small plazas,etc that started springing up outside the core in the fifties and sixties and, of course, the development of suburbs that weren't within easy distance of the city centre.

[IEFBR14]

MEC (my personal choice)I've been trying for years to get MEC to open a store in K-W. They don't seem to see the market despite the two universities, community college, high tech employees with time and money to burn, etc.
Now I'm really pissed :mad:

Q. What does Barrie/Simcoe have that Waterloo Region doesn't (apart from Helena Guergis and Rahim Jaffer)?

A. Popular outdoor retailer will open next store in Barrie, ON (http://www.mec.ca/Main/content_text.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=25343743028 81748&bmUID=1271299440629)
Mountain Equipment Co-opTM (MEC), Canada's leading outdoor retailer, today announced that construction of its fourteenth store will begin this April in Barrie, Ontario. The co-operative retailer's Barrie store will exemplify MEC's commitment to 'green building' and is expected to begin serving MEC members in November.

The Barrie MEC store will be located on Bryne Drive, just west of Highway 400, at Essa Road in the south end of the fast-growing city.

"Nearly one-third of MEC's three-million members call Ontario home, and Barrie will now provide a fourth store after Toronto, Ottawa and Burlington to serve our Ontario members, notably those who live in and around Simcoe County"...

The region of Simcoe County, which includes the southern shoreline of Georgian Bay, is a well-known destination for outdoor enthusiasts. The Niagara escarpment, which winds dramatically northwards through Simcoe County, offers some of Ontario's best single-pitch rock-climbing. Countless canoeing, hiking and cycling opportunities are available in warmer months while cross-country skiing and snow-shoeing are popular in the winter.

[mpd618]

I think the Sun Life parking lot in midtown would make a great MEC location.

[Spokes]

Now I'm really pissed :mad:

Shocked. And mad too.

[Spokes]

I think the Sun Life parking lot in midtown would make a great MEC location.

It's too big. Unless you were thinking it should be part of a bigger devleopment, then yes. I like how the Ottawa MEC is really integrated into the street, a lot of good interaction. Same can be said for the Toronto MEC

MEC Ottawa (http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=366+Richmond+Road,+Ottawa,+ON&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=366+Richmond+Rd,+Ottawa,+ON&gl=ca&ei=gAjHS5zIJ4L58Aamw5juCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ8gEwAA)

MEC Toronto (http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=400+King+Street+West,+Toronto,+ON&fb=1&gl=ca&hnear=400+King+Street+West,+Toronto,+ON&cid=0,0,17078089745856522756&ei=JgjHS82kMoP-8AbthPCHCw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQnwIwAA)

[plam]

It's too big. Unless you were thinking it should be part of a bigger devleopment, then yes. I like how the Ottawa MEC is really integrated into the street, a lot of good interaction. Same can be said for the Toronto MEC

MEC Ottawa (http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=366+Richmond+Road,+Ottawa,+ON&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=366+Richmond+Rd,+Ottawa,+ON&gl=ca&ei=gAjHS5zIJ4L58Aamw5juCg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ8gEwAA)

MEC Toronto (http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=400+King+Street+West,+Toronto,+ON&fb=1&gl=ca&hnear=400+King+Street+West,+Toronto,+ON&cid=0,0,17078089745856522756&ei=JgjHS82kMoP-8AbthPCHCw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQnwIwAA)

I don't really understand how MEC selects locations for its stores. The Quebec locations are completely non-central and quite hard to get to aside from by car. The Burlington location isn't great either. I don't know where the current Ottawa location is, but the Toronto location is good.

[IEFBR14]

I don't really understand how MEC selects locations for its stores.Nor do I if they chose Barrie over Waterloo.


The Burlington location isn't great either.Presumably it opens up the rest of the Golden Horseshoe even if it's inconvenient to those of us in this region. A Waterloo store would also attract traffic from London that wouldn't spend 2+ hours driving to Burlington, let alone downtown Toronto.


I don't know where the current Ottawa location is, but the Toronto location is good.The Ottawa store is in roughly the same type of neighbourhood as Toronto with public transit readily available and parking not so much.

[Spokes]

I don't really understand how MEC selects locations for its stores. The Quebec locations are completely non-central and quite hard to get to aside from by car. The Burlington location isn't great either. I don't know where the current Ottawa location is, but the Toronto location is good.

Im not sure how the process works. If maybe it's like Ikea where it has to be within X Km of X people, not sure.

The Burlington location isn't too bad for Burlington, seems to be a bit of a commercial core there, although I don't know Burlington well.

[Spokes]

The Ottawa store is in roughly the same type of neighbourhood as Toronto with public transit readily available and parking not so much.

Exactly, but toned down a bit. Don't let the people of Westboro hear you comparing it to King and Spedina though ;)

And yes to the transit, theres a street car that runs down Spadina that far if memory serves. And the Ottawa location is a one block walk from the Transitway

[IEFBR14]

Don't let the people of Westboro hear you comparing it to King and Spadina though ;)
I thought I was being tactful by using the qualifier "roughly the same type" ;) Actually I find the shopping environment in both locations quite similar. Both are urban retail areas with lots of specialty shops and restaurants. Other outdoors-related stores have opened up near MEC in both cities, etc.

BTW I've e-mailed the powers-that-be at MEC about this. We'll see how they respond. They've got a couple of stores in the GVR so, based on population, a store in K-W in addition to Barrie isn't totally out of the question.

[Spokes]

I thought I was being tactful by using the qualifier "roughly the same type" ;) Actually I find the shopping environment in both locations quite similar. Both are urban retail areas with lots of specialty shops and restaurants. Other outdoors-related stores have opened up near MEC in both cities, etc.

BTW I've e-mailed the powers-that-be at MEC about this. We'll see how they respond. They've got a couple of stores in the GVR so, based on population, a store in K-W in addition to Barrie isn't totally out of the question.

Yup I would agree that they're quite similar. Toronto's location is just built up more where as Westboro will never get to be that way (they're balking at 12 storeys right now)

[IEFBR14]

Thanks for your interest in Mountain Equipment Co-op stores location.

The region of Simcoe County, which includes the southern shoreline of Georgian Bay, is a well-known destination for outdoor enthusiasts. The Niagara escarpment, which winds dramatically northwards through Simcoe County, offers some of Ontario's best single-pitch rock-climbing. Countless canoeing, hiking and cycling opportunities are available in warmer months while cross-country skiing and snow-shoeing are popular in the winter.

We do not have short term intention to open a store in the Waterloo region, but will certainly consider your favorable arguments in our future construction plans.
:mad:

[Spokes]

That's terrible. I can see that as a half decent argument for Barrie (although there's holes in that argument) but in terms of Barrie over Waterloo Region, that's ridiculous. And the fact that they have no future plans, even more ridiculous.

[IEFBR14]

That response came from a low-level MEC functionary. I'm going to try to escalate to management next week. The response will probably be no different but at least someone who's in a position to give Waterloo Region serious consideration will be the one making it.

[Spokes]

Now THAT is the kind of persistence I like to see hah.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Mind sharing the email you sent MEC as well? Perhaps a few of us should copy and send it (power in numbers).

[jay]

We should do that but maybe alter it a bit so they think it's coming from different people that have no connection to each other.

[Spokes]

For sure. But once WW starts getting big numbers on a regular basis, we might be able to get enough pull to start sending open letters and have some success.

[IEFBR14]

Yeah, I should have included that too :o

This was in reply to their original mass e-mail announcing the decision to build in Barrie:

I must say that I'm very much disappointed by this announcement due to the choice of store location.

Why not Waterloo Region?

We have a much larger population with two major universities, a community college, myriad high technology enterprises from one-man bands to Research in Motion. We have internationally renowned institutions like Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics and Centre for International Governance Innovation. The people associated with these various enterprises tend to be young, active and financially well to do -- the ideal demographic for MEC.

What does Simcoe County have in comparison?

Furthermore, a store in Waterloo Region would make MEC more accessible to people living in nearby cities to the west of the GTA including Guelph, Stratford, Woodstock, London, etc.

When is MEC going to open a store in my area?
FWIW I've been a MEC member since the days the only stores were in Vancouver and Calgary.

[mpd618]

I don't think there's much use to multiple people sending in the request, unless you get thousands of hardcore outdoors people to say that they want it. You want to make a business case for it -- though it's a co-op, it's not a charitable organization.

[UrbanWaterloo]

I was in Downtown Woodstock this weekend and was surprised to see a Telus retail location. There's no large scale location in Waterloo Region's cores to buy cell phones (Bell, Rogers, Telus, Wireless Wave, The Source, Future Shop, Best Buy, etc..). This is a noticeable set-back from the 1990s when I remember a Bell World in Waterloo Town Square, and although I can't directly remember, I'm sure there was a location in either Kings Centre or Market Square.

How can little old Woodstock (Population 38,000 & Dairy Capital of Canada) have a better telephony store in their downtown than the Tech Capital of Canada? :RpS_confused:


Woodstock Telus Store (477 Dundas Street) - March 19, 2011

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Retail/Woodstock%20-%20Telus%20Store%20(477%20Dundas%20Street)%20-%20March%2019,%202011%20Resized.JPG

[IEFBR14]

I wonder how many other Telus stores have a Bell telephone booth right beside them :RpS_lol:

[mpd618]

We have no electronics stores of any kind in either uptown or downtown, no stationery / office supply stores, no all-night cafes/eateries. In downtown Kitchener, there's no regular grocery store, no hardware store, and no movie theatre.

Are there schools in walking distance? Daycare centres?

[DHLawrence]

We have no electronics stores of any kind in either uptown or downtown

If you use Windows. Carbon Computing is right at King and Victoria if you're a fellow Machead.

[panamaniac]

............
Are there schools in walking distance? ....

Sure - Suddaby P.S., Courtland Av Sr PS and Cameron Heights HS. Also St Louis Adult Education. Then there's King Edward and KCI heading toward Waterloo.

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

I'm not aware of any major suburban shopping centres in Woodstock besides neighborhood plazas. That could have something to do with Woodstock's ability to support a downtown Telus store. However, I don't think this is the typical scenario is small town Canada.

[Rowe]

Forever 21.

You don't want to know how many people who come to that store.

[WaterlooNative]

Are there schools in walking distance? Daycare centres?

The cities need to encourage better decisions from the school boards. There are several neighbourhoods that have become childless ghettos because the school boards have had to close schools. I'm surprised that the various school boards haven't figured out how to co-operate on physical plant space. For instance, if a Catholic and a Public elementary school are both at half capacity within a neighbourhood, does it make sense for both schools to close? Invariably, both schools closed and the students were left with no school within a walking distance reasonable for elementary-aged children.

A friend recently moved to a 1950s/60s-era Kitchener neighbourhood with the intent of staying and raising a family in the next five years. Within a year of her moving in, the school board announced that the local school would close.

I understand that when Harold Wagner public school closed, the justification was that there were somewhere between 100 and 200 students. The school was sold to the French Catholic board and opened with well under 100 students. Why could the two boards not have co-operated?

Is this a chicken and egg kind of scenario? If the cities are to encourage more density, presumably across all age groups and demographics, how can they do so when the accompanying services are not there? What will attract residents to a walkable area if they still need to drive or be driven (in the case of children) to everything.

[Trogdor]

Why could the two boards not have co-operated?

Don't get me started on how ridiculous it is that Ontario finances two school boards in every region...

[BuildingScout]

I understand that when Harold Wagner public school closed, the justification was that there were somewhere between 100 and 200 students. The school was sold to the French Catholic board and opened with well under 100 students. Why could the two boards not have co-operated?

It was the French public board, and it had 100 students at opening time. Currently it is at about 150 students and growing, I think.

[panamaniac]

Don't get me started on how ridiculous it is that Ontario finances two school boards in every region...

Complain to the Fathers of Confederation! :RpS_rolleyes:

[KevinL]

It was the French public board, and it had 100 students at opening time. Currently it is at about 150 students and growing, I think.

THe French and English boards, at least, should be able to cooperate and operate in the same building, shouldn't they? Seems a waste to close a half-full school, and then another board also half-fill it.

[garthdanlor]

Complain to the Fathers of Confederation! :RpS_rolleyes:

Not a Father of Confederation, but Bill Davis deserves some blame too.

[bcwessel]

There are examples in Northern Ontario, where the communities are smaller and the French population much more pronounced, of English and French schools sharing the same building.

One way to prevent a neighbourhood from becoming childless over time is to allow a healthy mix of housing types which address the needs of a wider range of potential home owners and renters. By making neighbourhoods more demographically heterogeneous (by, for instances, not segregating housing type by cost and lot size), there is a reduced chance that everybody moving into a neighbourhood will be at a similar stage in their lives, and it also allows for residents to age along with the development without preventing an influx of new and younger residents. If you can rent, and then buy a starter, then up grade to a larger home, and then finally move into an empty-nester loft all in the same neighbourhood, that means it is also possible for another younger family to follow you in the same progression, behind you. Rather than having young neighbourhoods and old neighbourhoods, you would simply wind up with continuously circulating neighbourhoods that are more complete.

[BuildingScout]

One way to prevent a neighbourhood from becoming childless over time is to allow a healthy mix of housing types which address the needs of a wider range of potential home owners and renters.

That would be ideal, but reality is that in Waterloo, the prefered mode of development is the monoculture, be it senior citizens, young families, or childless persons/couples. The only monoculture development that upsets city hall is student neighbourhoods.

[bcwessel]

That would be ideal, but reality is that in Waterloo, the prefered mode of development is the monoculture, be it senior citizens, young families, or childless persons/couples. The only monoculture development that upsets city hall is student neighbourhoods.

I don't think the question is really IF we will continue to build in this way, but rather how much of it we will be forced to rehabilitate down the road when the current reality of 100kms commutes and fleets of yellow buses is no longer tenable (by the way, that's already happened for many). As for the notion, oft repeated by developers, that they are simply providing the market with the housing types it is demanding, I think the fact that compact, diverse, walkable urbanism (traditional neighbourhoods with single-detached houses with lawns included - these things are not mutually exclusive) retained its value better than sprawling suburbs segregated by use and income during the recent housing crash to the south, and has rebounded much more forcefully as the tentative recovery progresses dispels this myth pretty soundly. It's 2011, which means we should be building houses for 2020 and beyond, not for 1950.

[mpd618]

That would be ideal, but reality is that in Waterloo, the prefered mode of development is the monoculture, be it senior citizens, young families, or childless persons/couples. The only monoculture development that upsets city hall is student neighbourhoods.

Nonsense. At this point I think it is preferred only because it is the status quo, and not because there is overwhelming demand for monoculture. It's rather self-defeating to use status quo being what it is as a reason to avoid change. Particularly when we actually are trying to plan for changing demographics and changes in growth patterns.

[BuildingScout]

Nonsense. At this point I think it is preferred only because it is the status quo, and not because there is overwhelming demand for monoculture. It's rather self-defeating to use status quo being what it is as a reason to avoid change. Particularly when we actually are trying to plan for changing demographics and changes in growth patterns.

I'm just describing the way things are, not advocating one way or another.

[markster]

Indeed, the thing that downtown needs is 3-bedroom apartments/condos/townhomes that aren't $500,000 penthouses.

[WaterlooNative]

Indeed, the thing that downtown needs is 3-bedroom apartments/condos/townhomes that aren't $500,000 penthouses.

Likewise, it needs apartments/condos/townhomes that are not geared to the student market (or at least have a form that could transition to young professionals recently graduated from post-secondary education).

[markster]

Likewise, it needs apartments/condos/townhomes that are not geared to the student market (or at least have a form that could transition to young professionals recently graduated from post-secondary education).
That would seem to be more of an Uptown problem, but absolutely.

[KayDubya]

Indeed, the thing that downtown needs is 3-bedroom apartments/condos/townhomes that aren't $500,000 penthouses.

Amen to that!
I've been bugging city councilors for a long time about this very thing. I'd love to live downtown but places in my price range either don't exist or they're far to small.
If it's just me and the wife one of those 900 sq foot units at City Centre would fit just right but add 2 young kids and it's just not going to work.
What's wrong with some nice appartments building with decent sized appartments in the 12- 1400 dollar a month range for rent?

I know I'm probably in the minority. A middle income earner with a familly who isn't dreaming of a house in the suburbs but I can't be the only one can I?

[DHLawrence]

I wouldn't mind one. I'm still in the one-bedroom club, but wouldn't mind upgrading one day. I've been looking at apartments in Kitchener in advance of a potential relocation and the only place that really meets my criteria is almost at St Mary's. A bit distant for my liking, though still doable.

[plam]

Indeed, the thing that downtown needs is 3-bedroom apartments/condos/townhomes that aren't $500,000 penthouses.

+1

City Centre, for instance, tops out at 2br+den.

[Section ThirtyOne]

Can we please, please, please get some inexpensive take-out places in Uptown? I don't always want to go to a 50+ dollar per head sit-down restaurant to eat. A shawarma place, poutine place, something along those lines would be appreciated!

[mpd618]

Can we please, please, please get some inexpensive take-out places in Uptown? I don't always want to go to a 50+ dollar per head sit-down restaurant to eat. A shawarma place, poutine place, something along those lines would be appreciated!

Ish and Chips (http://www.ishandchips.com/) is such a place, but yes, the pickings are slim.

[IEFBR14]

There's also Zoup (http://www.zoup.com/) coming soon to Willis Way. They specialize in soup but also offer sandwiches, salads and desserts. (This was discussed on another thread but deserves mention here.)

[benjaminbach]

Can we please, please, please get some inexpensive take-out places in Uptown? I don't always want to go to a 50+ dollar per head sit-down restaurant to eat. A shawarma place, poutine place, something along those lines would be appreciated!

Try Thrive in the Bauer Buildings. Delish!

[Section ThirtyOne]

Try Thrive in the Bauer Buildings. Delish!

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely check it out!

EDIT: Found a review, and it looks delicious even though I am not vegetarian: http://www.waterlooregioneats.com/2011/01/thrive-juice-bar/

[Greg Moore]

Can we please, please, please get some inexpensive take-out places in Uptown? I don't always want to go to a 50+ dollar per head sit-down restaurant to eat. A shawarma place, poutine place, something along those lines would be appreciated!Add Casa Mia and Vicenzo's to the list.

[Section ThirtyOne]

Add Casa Mia and Vicenzo's to the list.

Oh yes, I am a regular at Vincenzo's. ;)

The sushi bar at Casa Mia is quite good, but their sandwiches are average. (in spite of the delicious breads available)

[garthdanlor]

Try Thrive in the Bauer Buildings. Delish!
I second this...the food is delicious and inexpensive.

[pnijjar]

All you people wanting a grocery store: New City Supermarket does a pretty good job, in my opinion. Between that, the Market and the Bargain Shop I cover most of my needs week to week.

I can't count to five so here are two suggestions:

- More office space, especially rentable offices where people could telecommute
- Some place where people could pay for showers after their sweaty bike commutes downtown (I guess Goodlife Fitness fits that need, but I don't want to pay a gym membership to shower in the morning)

I was going to suggest a good thrift store, but I guess there are plenty of smaller thrift stores for clothing, and Worth a Second Look for housewares.

[Trogdor]

I second this...the food is delicious and inexpensive.

Just don't get a smoothie...I went in there to try it out and I was stunned when I ended up forking over about eight bucks. And I thought Booster Juice was expensive!

[mpd618]

- More office space, especially rentable offices where people could telecommute

This is not unlike what Treehaus (http://www.treehaus.ca/) provides.

[benjaminbach]

Just don't get a smoothie...I went in there to try it out and I was stunned when I ended up forking over about eight bucks. And I thought Booster Juice was expensive!

Get the smoothies, they are spectacular. You're paying more than Booster Juice b/c all the ingredients are as fresh & healthy as possible.

I recommend the Kale Mojito and the Chocolate Avocado Ganache. Enjoy!

[KevinL]

All you people wanting a grocery store: New City Supermarket does a pretty good job, in my opinion. Between that, the Market and the Bargain Shop I cover most of my needs week to week.

It would be nice if there was something a bit more upscale, and that consistently carried national brands. I think a small FreshCo or Valu-Mart could fit in well once we have places like City Centre occupied.

[markster]

New City is a decent supermarket, but it makes for a rather frustrating shop when I can get most everything on my shopping list except for my white person staple foods, like milk and bread.

[Section ThirtyOne]

New City is a decent supermarket, but it makes for a rather frustrating shop when I can get most everything on my shopping list except for my white person staple foods, like milk and bread.

They regularly have Wonder bread available if that is what you mean. (or at least they used to)

I would kill to have a New City type market in Uptown.

[markster]

Wonder Bread does not cut it.
By a similar token, they do carry milk, but it is generally a small selection, and is often either out of stock, or close to expiry.

[Trogdor]

Get the smoothies, they are spectacular. You're paying more than Booster Juice b/c all the ingredients are as fresh & healthy as possible.

I recommend the Kale Mojito and the Chocolate Avocado Ganache. Enjoy!

Oh I'm not saying they're not delicious. I really enjoyed mine in fact. I just don't think eight dollars for any smoothie is worth it - but if you can afford it, all the more power to you!

[jamesbow]

What does the Downtown need? No contest: a decent grocery store. We've had so much trouble finding something as simple as avocados for dinner (nachos and guacamole), I think the new downtown residents are pretty ill-served by the lack of such a facility. The Shoppers Drug Mart does serve as a place to get milk and some groceries, but it's not a place for produce. Uptown Waterloo has Valumart, so theoretically, downtown Kitchener should be able to support something similar.

The Farmer's Market helps a lot, but it's confined to the east end of the downtown. We really need something for the west end, perhaps at the corner of King and Victoria, kitty-corner to the proposed new transit centre.

...James

[fin2limb]

What does the Downtown need? No contest: a decent grocery store. We've had so much trouble finding something as simple as avocados for dinner (nachos and guacamole), I think the new downtown residents are pretty ill-served by the lack of such a facility. The Shoppers Drug Mart does serve as a place to get milk and some groceries, but it's not a place for produce. Uptown Waterloo has Valumart, so theoretically, downtown Kitchener should be able to support something similar.

The Farmer's Market helps a lot, but it's confined to the east end of the downtown. We really need something for the west end, perhaps at the corner of King and Victoria, kitty-corner to the proposed new transit centre.

...James

100% agreed.

[WaterlooNative]

This thread should probably be split into two section:
What does downtown Kitchener need?
What does downtown Waterloo (Uptown) need?

A quick skim of the thread reveals that each district has what the other needs.

[bcwessel]

The Rush to Build Walkable Urban Grocery Stores
Sam Newberg | UrbanLand | 22 March 2011 | LINK (http://urbanland.uli.org/Articles/2011/Mar/NewbergGrocery)


Downtowns and urban neighborhoods are seeing new grocery store development, with a revolution in store design, location in mixed-use projects, parking solutions, and role within neighborhoods. In addition, in 2011 there will be tremendous churn in the grocery market, with much of it focused on cities. With traditional grocers like A & P filing for bankruptcy, independent grocers and national chains alike are licking their chops, seeking a place in the multiple-niche urban environment. . .

Wal-Mart also is looking to build in more urban settings. In 2010, the retailer announced that 51 percent of its sales are from grocery-related products. In 2010, Wal-Mart announced plans to build four stores in Washington, D.C., part of a move into several new urban markets. In a notable break from tradition, one of the D.C. stores will have 75,000 square feet on the ground floor of a mixed-use building with 315 apartments above. The development is a joint venture between JBG Rosenfeld Retail and the Bennett Group, both based in the Washington area.

Wal-Mart is also proposing smaller-format stores with as little as 20,000 square feet of space, called Wal-Mart Express, with a heavy emphasis on groceries. One of its first stores announced is a 26,491-square-foot Wal-Mart Express in the Presidential Towers in Chicago’s West Loop neighborhood. (See the active discussion of members of the ULI Linkedin Group taking place on the topic of Wal-Mart's proposed plans.) . . .

On the ultra-small and uber-local scale, Local D’Lish in Minneapolis, Minnesota, provides a walkable alternative for residents of the North Loop, a growing residential neighborhood near the downtown. With an austere 2,000-square-foot store, owners Ann and Yulin Yin focus on locally sourced groceries and great customer service. Mayberry Foodstuffs in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio, is even smaller at 550 square feet, but both seek to fill a void among area residents for a convenient, walkable grocery store.

[pnijjar]

The Farmer's Market helps a lot, but it's confined to the east end of the downtown. We really need something for the west end, perhaps at the corner of King and Victoria, kitty-corner to the proposed new transit centre.



Wow. We have to split hairs so finely that we now distinguish between the West and East ends of Kitchener downtown? I think calling the Farmer's Market "confined" to the East end is a real stretch -- I used to shop there when I lived in Waterloo by the university! It is intended to be a destination for the entire city.

Look: if we can support a walkable, moderately-priced grocery store without killing the fine options we already have, then that's great. But there are lots of options already, and with profit margins for grocery stores being so thin I don't know how many more grocery places could survive.

- The Market is good for fruits and vegetables (and bread!) when it is open
- Shopper's Drug Mart has overpriced white person staples, as does the Bargain Shop
- New City has a lot of good groceries if you are willing to adapt your eating to the local shopping environment
- There are lots of small stores (the Latin store beside the bus station, the Vietnamese grocery on Weber near Victoria, the Caribbean grocery place, arguably the African grocery at Ahrens and Victoria, even Hasty Market) for exotic staples, some of which are reasonably priced
- Central Fresh Mart is a short bus ride away down the mainline, and it has good hours into the evening. It is by no means downtown, but it is really accessible from downtown
- Full Circle foods has plenty of dry goods and pseudoscience to offer

I agree that none of these places is a big mainstream grocery store, and that they are not as convenient as a 24 hour Sobeys, but that is part of the reason to embrace downtowns. Aren't we all supposed to be endorsing these cutesy boutique stores? Isn't that what distinguishes the downtown from suburbia?

[bcwessel]

I agree that none of these places is a big mainstream grocery store, and that they are not as convenient as a 24 hour Sobeys, but that is part of the reason to embrace downtowns. Aren't we all supposed to be endorsing these cutesy boutique stores? Isn't that what distinguishes the downtown from suburbia?

In a word, no. Cutesy boutique stores is not what distinguishes downtowns from suburbia.

[mpd618]

I agree that none of these places is a big mainstream grocery store, and that they are not as convenient as a 24 hour Sobeys, but that is part of the reason to embrace downtowns. Aren't we all supposed to be endorsing these cutesy boutique stores? Isn't that what distinguishes the downtown from suburbia?

I would say: No, diversity is what distinguishes a downtown from suburbia.

[Section ThirtyOne]

I would also add that density (and the things that come along with it) also distinguish downtown from suburbia.

[BuildingScout]

An example of a dense downtown at work. Entire area is 1.6km by 1.2km and it contains all the restaurants, schools, shops, bars, parks, train and bus station, subway, church that one would ever need. All within walking distance.

[URL="http://www.picvalley.[/URL]


Compare this to RoW, where height and density restrictions would require an area holding this many people to be about 5km by 4km.

[smably]

Wow. We have to split hairs so finely that we now distinguish between the West and East ends of Kitchener downtown?
For me, living at King and Victoria, Central Fresh is actually pretty close -- closer than the market, actually. It takes me seven minutes to walk there (I've checked), and much less if I catch a 7 or ride my bike. For small things, Shoppers is about two minutes away on foot.

I actually really like Central -- I like that it's a local business and that it's open late. I'm not sure it would be able to compete if a grocery chain opened a store less than a kilometre away (at King and Victoria, as was suggested). I really would like to see a grocery store somewhere right downtown, though, like the Charles Street Terminal lot once it gets redeveloped. Centre Block would have been great.

[mpd618]

I actually really like Central -- I like that it's a local business and that it's open late.

They've started developing a store brand for canned goods, and many of these say "Foodland Ontario", which I think is pretty awesome.

[garthdanlor]

They've started developing a store brand for canned goods, and many of these say "Foodland Ontario", which I think is pretty awesome.
It's a great idea. So far, we've bought a few jars/cans from this line and it has been good stuff. Not cheap, but after noticing that my store brand beets from another store had been imported from India, I'm more than happy to pay a little extra. Don't get me wrong, I love Indian cuisine and use other Indian products, but something like beets shouldn't have to be imported 12000km just so that we can save a few cents on a jar.

Central seems to benefiting from the influx of new residents in Uptown and Downtown and I don't think a smaller urban grocer in Downtown will harm them too much. However, add anything approaching a full size Zehrs or Sobeys near King & Victoria and I think it would be game over for Central. That would be a shame as independent general grocers are already almost extinct.

[Section ThirtyOne]

[URL="http://www.picvalley.[/URL]


I don't know if i'm the only one, but I got some nasty, NASTY malware from that link. It pretty much crippled my netbook and i'm still trying to get rid of it.

[Section ThirtyOne]

For those that got a little "present" from that link, Malware Bytes was able to take care of it.

http://www.malwarebytes.org/

[BuildingScout]

I don't know if i'm the only one, but I got some nasty, NASTY malware from that link. It pretty much crippled my netbook and i'm still trying to get rid of it.

I did a quick search and couldn't find anyone else complaining about picvalley. McAffee gives them a clean bill of health:

http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/picvalley.net


Sorry about that.

[Section ThirtyOne]

I did a quick search and couldn't find anyone else complaining about picvalley. McAffee gives them a clean bill of health:

http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/picvalley.net


Sorry about that.

No worries.

The malicious code was probably embedded in an ad or something, and the site owners likely had no idea anything was going on. I just wanted to save people the trouble of a potential issue, as this malware was a pesky one.

[bcwessel]

Many of Ontario's cities covet downtown grocery stores
Jennfier O'Brien | London Free Press | 16 May 2011 | LINK (http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/05/15/18151766.html)


But the fact we’re all in this together — this resistance from grocery chains that insist our thriving, but somewhat measly core population isn’t enough to sustain a full store — won’t make it any easier to bear. Especially after you hear from someone who has what we all want.

“We do have one, and we know how fortunate we are,” said Patti Brooks of the Uptown Waterloo Business Improvement Area.

“It is a critical piece of our core. The convenience of having a food option within walking distance is critical.” . . .

Kitchener’s business association has also tried to lure a supermarket downtown, but with fewer than 3,000 people living there, has had the same result as London. The group has turned to promoting the downtown lifestyle — as it is. Not necessarily convenient, but eclectic and filled with everything you need. “We do have what we are trying to market as a grocery alternative,” said Erin Young, retail recruiter for the BIA. “We are focusing on that in the urban setting — the one-stop shop of buying $200 worth of *groceries in one place, you can’t do that. But we are trying to market how an urban customer can get groceries.”

She noted Kitchener’s core has a Saturday market, complemented by an Asian supermarket, a Shoppers and a bargain store.

“You may make more trips, but . . . it’s just a different mindset.”

[IEFBR14]

Also from the above article:
“The big deal here is transportation,” he said. “The stores will come if there is an LRT — if we get transportation similar to Toronto, you’ll create consumption, and then there’ll be in-fill with residential — and then stores.”

Murphy couldn’t estimated how many people live in Hamilton’s core, but said 23,000 people work there daily.

“But it’s like high school — the bell goes off at 4 (p.m.) and the place just vacates,” he said.

[bcwessel]

A possible solution for the downtown grocery store?
Jonathon O'Connell | Washington Post | 16 May 2011 | LINK (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/safeway-plots-mixed-use-development-in-tenleytown/2011/05/09/AFJeKK4G_story.html)


afeway, one of the area’s top grocers, has updated its stores and solidified its presence in the region by playing the role of co-developer in mixed-use projects.

Now the Pleasanton, Calif.-based chain has its sights set on its next project, in Tenleytown, where the chain owns a 34,000-square-foot store off of Wisconsin Avenue NW and is considering a mixed-use project featuring a larger, 58,000-square-foot store, with some 150 apartments on top and 10 to 15 new town homes.

Tenleytown could become the third in a string of redevelopment projects Safeway has begun in order to expand and update its stores and leverage its Washington-area real estate holdings.

In Wheaton, the company partnered with Patriot Realty and is nearly underway on a new 17-story residential and retail project to replace its antiquated 24,000-square-foot store at Georgia Avenue and Reedie Drive with a 65,000-square-foot store and 486 apartments. . .

Safeway’s experience partnering with housing developers and working with residents through the zoning process has allowed the company to align itself with public officials who are looking to fashion their neighborhoods as more walkable, urban and environmentally friendly. The company was recently joined by D.C. officials to celebrate the certification of its refurbished Georgetown store (which is not mixed-use) as an environmentally friendly Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design project.

[panamaniac]

The kind of thing we'd like to see at the Fusion project on King E.

[RangersFan]

The kind of thing we'd like to see at the Fusion project on King E.
Exactly, I still would really love to see an overhaul of the Market district Downtown that would be a destination for shoppers in the region and outside of it. The market really needs greater open hours to really be an attractive food supply for the downtown area.

[bcwessel]

In its previous life, this grocery store was a shipping container
Twilight Greenaway | Grist | 21 September 2011 | LINK (http://www.grist.org/food/2011-09-21-stockbox-small-stores-big-plans)


When it comes to bringing fruits and vegetables to so-called food deserts, mobile distribution efforts have long appeared to be a useful solution. Ever since Oakland's People's Grocerykicked this trend off (http://www.dwell.com/articles/bringing-beets-to-the-streets.html) nearly a decade ago, food justice advocates have been filling school buses (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/15/dc-mobile-market-bus-food-desert_n_962763.html), old postal trucks (http://politicsoftheplate.com/?p=643), and ice cream trucks (http://www.hubcityfm.org/markets/mobile-market/)with fresh produce and other less-processed foods to get real sustenance into the hands of those who need it.

But when Carrie Ferrence, a then-graduate student at Washington's Bainbridge Graduate Institute, started looking into the preliminary research about existing mobile projects, she found that their limited hours and availability were often leaving customers unfulfilled. "A lot of what people are looking for isn't just intermittent access to good food, it's reliable access to good food," says Ferrence.

She and her project partner Jacqueline Gjurgevich wondered: What happens if you take the wheels off? And, while we're at it, why not put a tiny food store in a parking lot, like a miniature espresso stand? At a time when so many food businesses appear to have the mobile bug, their idea for a new type of corner store had something no food truck has: staying power.

But it wasn't until they hit on the idea of building these stores out of reclaimed shipping containers that Ferrence and Gjurgevich were sold on trying to make it happen. They liked the idea of upcycling products that are no longer useful for the shipping industry but could still have another 40-50 years of life left in them.

"[The containers] are a really portable, easy to locate, and replicable building material -- the size allows us to either add-on or to grow over time," says Ferrence. They're also perfect for parking lots. . .

The idea was to create a model they could scale up quickly: The stores can be easily "dropped" (via crane and flatbed truck) in just about any area with a parking lot.

It's a tiny store, but Ferrence says the prototype is already meeting a big need: They've stocked their 20-foot-long container with 300 differentitems, around 10 percent of which is produce.

Although Stockboxes have some things in common with corner stores, they won't rely on cigarettes and alcohol to make a profit. (Ferrence says cigarettes are off-limits, though beer and wine may appear in some stores in small quantities. But she notes that since there's rarely a shortage of alcohol available in most food deserts, it's not a big priority.)

They are working closely with local food access projects, however, to help connect area residents to the store and to gather their input. In the first week, Ferrence says, she was surprised by how many shoppers requested local and organic foods. Overall, customers have been vocal and thankful: making product requests, stopping in for staples, and commenting on just how much can fit in such a small space.


If there's two things we've got in spades, it's parking lots and a need for greater walkable access to quality, local produce.

[Waterlooer]

Dowtown really needs its market district to be fixed up.

[bcwessel]

Dowtown really needs its market district to be fixed up.

What do you mean by "fixed up"? I personally feel that much could be done by simply better promoting what is currently down there, but I'm interested to know what you (or anybody else) feels this often overlooked section of Downtown is lacking, and how it might be improved. I would like to see some kind of city-sponsored subsidy designed to attract complimentary businesses to the area (like butchers, cheese shops, tea shops, produce stands and even convenience grocers). I've seen the City mention in the past the idea that Downtown is capable of servicing your daily needs (albeit in a slightly different fashion than large-format super markets), but I'm unaware of any initiatives designed to cultivate a stronger mix for the required network stores, or any attempts to strongly brand the Market District as a place for normal people to go and do their normal, regular daily/weekly shop.

[HillDweller]

What do you mean by "fixed up"? I personally feel that much could be done by simply better promoting what is currently down there, but I'm interested to know what you (or anybody else) feels this often overlooked section of Downtown is lacking, and how it might be improved. I would like to see some kind of city-sponsored subsidy designed to attract complimentary businesses to the area (like butchers, cheese shops, tea shops, produce stands and even convenience grocers). I've seen the City mention in the past the idea that Downtown is capable of servicing your daily needs (albeit in a slightly different fashion than large-format super markets), but I'm unaware of any initiatives designed to cultivate a stronger mix for the required network stores, or any attempts to strongly brand the Market District as a place for normal people to go and do their normal, regular daily/weekly shop.

That area will change a lot when LRT is in place.

[panamaniac]

I also wondered about the comment about the area needing to be "fixed up" as it seems to disregard the significant improvements that have been put in place in recent years, including streetscaping, infrastructure, and the current market building itself. I would love to see more specialty food retailers along that stretch of King St, and the bakery that is already there suggests that it can be done. Add a green grocer/convenience store to the suggested butcher and cheese shop and you would basically have most of what you need.

[mpd618]

What do you mean by "fixed up"?

I know what I mean by "fixed up" - an iXpress stop near there. Getting there by transit from any points north is a real pain in the ass. You have to either wait for who knows how long on your 7 at the terminal, or walk the entire way.

Another thing the market itself needs is some drastic change to the part that actually fronts King Street. It's far from the street, separated by lots of concrete, and completely fails to invite passers-by in.

[DHLawrence]

That will hopefully be changing soon. The lot with the car dealership has been purchased and is being rezoned for development.

[KevinL]

Another thing the market itself needs is some drastic change to the part that actually fronts King Street. It's far from the street, separated by lots of concrete, and completely fails to invite passers-by in.

Absolutely. The entire King Street side of the complex was planned abysmally, in my opinion; an unremarkable square tucked that high up and back from the street, with no protection from the elements, is nothing to be proud of.

[BigCityBoy]

What does downtown Kitchener need most? Less reprobates and more young professionals. Good luck with that.

[mpd618]

What does downtown Kitchener need most? Less reprobates and more young professionals. Good luck with that.

Plenty of them already work downtown. Build them more nice, affordable condos, and they will come.

[panamaniac]

What does downtown Kitchener need most? Less reprobates and more young professionals. Good luck with that.

As an old professional who will move Downtown next year with plans to patronize Downtown restaurants, drink Downtown coffee, and enjoy Downtown cultural amenities, you hurt my feelings. Don't we count? :RpS_wink:

[bcwessel]

What does downtown Kitchener need most? Less reprobates and more young professionals. Good luck with that.

Another incisive, productive comment clearly intended to move the conversation forward. By-the-by, your classist sniping is about as welcome as racism, sexism, or jingoist Islamophobia -- not just here but in public in general.

[BigCityBoy]

Please don't get me wrong - a mixed, diversified community is good. I think old professionals are part of that mix too. I just think perhaps there are too many of one and not enough of the other. And it's no just this humble poster. For example, why was there so much uproar about the new methadone clinic opening up along King Street earlier this month. There was great controversy by local residents and elected local officals that they were not given advanced notiice and demanded to be alerted by the provinical government about the placement of the clinic so that, no doubt, they could object and have it moved elsewhere. Where then should it go? Clearly the Province of Ontario placed it somewhere where it might best be used, no? And if local resident's object to it because of potentially adverse influences on local property prices and unseemly characters roving the area, what does that say about classism, etc.?

[plam]

Another incisive, productive comment clearly intended to move the conversation forward. By-the-by, your classist sniping is about as welcome as racism, sexism, or jingoist Islamophobia -- not just here but in public in general.

While "reprobates" is a loaded term, I don't think that we can just ignore the fact that there are all sorts of people in downtown Kitchener, which has an effect on the future development of the area.

It's clearly unproductive to just sweep up people and "make the problem go away", but it's also worthwhile to think about how to effectively share the public domain between people of different backgrounds and social strata.

[panamaniac]

The new methadone clinic is not located Downtown, it is on King east of Ottawa Street. The alleged "uproar" doesn't seem to have been more than the kind of nimbyism one encounters in many places and the clinic continues to operate, with an effort made to address the problems generated by its own rather poor rollout. I don't see what it has to do with diversity in Downtown and I suspect that if it had in fact been opened Downtown, the event would have passed unnoticed.

[bcwessel]

While "reprobates" is a loaded term, I don't think that we can just ignore the fact that there are all sorts of people in downtown Kitchener, which has an effect on the future development of the area.

It's clearly unproductive to just sweep up people and "make the problem go away", but it's also worthwhile to think about how to effectively share the public domain between people of different backgrounds and social strata.

I think that's a great discussion, not just one worth having but one that's essential to the future development of Downtown. BigCityBoy didn't say "What we need is a better strategy for making Downtown a more inclusive, socially productive and cohesive, demographically healthy place," he said "Downtown needs less really poor people because they are irredeemable sinners who lack moral principle." There are plenty of productive social programmes which could help to give our most vulnerable citizens a hand in better participating in, benefiting from, and claiming ownership of our community (many which are happening throughout the region already, though certainly not enough in my opinion).

However, I find it pretty appalling to suggest that Downtown really just needs fewer destitute individuals when unemployment has been around 9% for 3 years, and inequality is greater than it's been at any time since The Great Depression. Perhaps were not dealing with a group of depraved, morally bankrupt people but rather something a little more systemic. How exactly do you even determine that somebody is wicked anyway?

[bcwessel]

Though if we look past the ridiculous use of the word "reprobates" for a minute, my own reading of the comment which started it is all pretty simple: "Downtown is a shithole." Well played. Is that a conversation worth having?

[BigCityBoy]

Quite correct. Although i still consider that a part of downtown/south ward. The point is that there is a methadone clinic at all, i suppose. The question was what does downtown need? I believe that it's a more productive, educated people to tht would inhabit downtown and that might go to restaurants (however mediocre), to shop, to buy condos, to encourage businesses to cater to their needs.

I don't see how callng a spade a spade is classism. or such, as indicated by bcwessel. Although perhaps crude and 'loaded' in terminology, the point still stands. Kitchener's downtown needs more upwardly mobile occupants in order to really flourish as a centre and make use of the Farmer's Market, the cinema. the shopping, etc. There must be a good reason why there is no grocery store downtown when most large scale retailers are right on top off potentially untapped areas. Clearly they see no profit from their customers. Waterloo has one, Kitchener does not. How is that possible given the population difference between the two cores if affluence has no determination? Not classism, just realism, bcwessel. Sorry you don't like the answer but it is glaringly there, in my opinion. And again, simply an opinion.

[BigCityBoy]

You guys are right. What Kitchener needs most is a new farmer's market or streetscape. Wait, both those things have happened and we're still where we were before.

[bcwessel]

I never said that, by the way. I'll admit reprobates was perhaps strong language but i think you get the point. It has very little to do with class but rather character.

I'm quite certain the people to whom you are referring represent a broad cross section of incomes and backgrounds.

[panamaniac]

I took a quarter century of decline for Downtown to get to the state it was in a few years ago. By the same token, the progress made over the past few years is obvious and the trend continues to be positive. Things like the Market and the (award winning) streetscaping seem to me to be an indication of the City getting it right, but it will take time. With more residents, workers and businesses, I don't doubt that we will again see a supermarket (there used to be two).

[BigCityBoy]

Agreed. Also at great cost to the local tax-payer, i might add. Not exactly organic growth but rather a forced quarterback sneak, a kind of subsidy...admirable, no doubt, but will it light the fire? Giving away a prime piece of land to a condo corp will indoubtedly line the developer's pocket but will it actually shift the demographic that i believe is required to 'get this party started.' Again, just an opinion.

[BigCityBoy]

You do, of course, realise that sarcism is considered to be the lowest form of wit. I do not purport to be a man of limited nor excessive amount of wit. I believe i am right on the cusp. There are many who would say ' Why does he do it?" The answer is in truth. I aspire to pull back all levels of 'the onion' and get right down to it. If it's too much sour for you, so be it. Ipso facto. C'est la vie ;-D

[mpd618]

Agreed. Also at great cost to the local tax-payer, i might add. Not exactly organic growth but rather a forced quarterback sneak, a kind of subsidy...admirable, no doubt, but will it light the fire? Giving away a prime piece of land to a condo corp will indoubtedly line the developer's pocket but will it actually shift the demographic that i believe is required to 'get this party started.' Again, just an opinion.

These are two different things you're talking about - the streetscape, and the centre block. The latter is something I'm not going to argue in favour of - it's a mega-project and quite possibly a large waste of money (and buildings) by the previous Council that chose a particularly ham-handed approach to managing downtown businesses and buildings.

The streetscape, however, is an investment of taxpayer money that I believe has massively improved the quality of life on King Street itself, set an example for other cities to follow, and is helping to jump-start the downtown as a place for people to enjoy being in, and to live and work in. That in turn helps to drive the city's economy, which does mean more jobs and property taxes. The new King streetscape is not just a "nice to have" - though it certainly is very nice to have.

Certainly you can't have huge change in the number of businesses or the number of residents overnight. But making the street an attractive place to be will lead to more of both setting up.

[panamaniac]

.....
Certainly you can't have huge change in the number of businesses or the number of residents overnight. But making the street an attractive place to be will lead to more of both setting up.

And it seems to be working (fingers crossed). In terms of residential and commercial renovations and new businesses (not to mention the Consolidated Courthouse and the Charles/Benton parking garage), there has been more activity Downtown in the last year or two than there has since the King Centre was built (well, City Hall anyway). If some of the big projects like City Centre, Breithaupt Block, the transportaion hub and the Fusion proposal are successful then, along with LRT, I think there is the good chance that Kitchener will again have a solid urban core in about five years time. I am concerned that a major economic downturn could put everything on hold, but that is beyond our control.

[bcwessel]

YIMBYISM: How to say "Yes in my backyard!"
Wendy Stueck | Globe and Mail | 23 September 2011 | LINK (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/vancouver-advocacy-group-creates-yimby-manual/article2178780/?utm_)


Vancouver’s Pivot Legal Society is launching a how-to manual for people who want to welcome potentially controversial projects, including homeless shelters, to their neighbourhoods.
The manual – dubbed a “Yes in my backyard!” or Yimby tool kit – will include tips and strategies that have been used in other cities to support projects, including social housing and addiction services, and is to be introduced at a yard party in East Vancouver on Sunday.

The project was in part a response to Nimby – not in my backyard – attitudes that resulting in homeless emergency action team shelters being closed in 2009, the Vancouver-based advocacy group said Friday in a statement.
In 2009, residents in the False Creek North neighbourhood complained of crime, vandalism and public disorder after the city opened two temporary homeless shelters in their neighbourhood.

Residents complained the shelters – low-barrier facilities designed to give people a place to sleep out of the cold – were opened in the neighbourhood with no consultation and placed next to a daycare centre and a seniors’ residence.
After a public outcry, the shelters closed as spaces were found in other facilities.

Since the HEAT shelters opened in December of 2008, homeless advocates have lobbied for the facilities – meant as stop-gap measures – to stay open, saying the amount of social housing being built by the city and the province is not keeping up to shelter needs.

[WaterlooNative]

The streetscape, however, is an investment of taxpayer money that I believe has massively improved the quality of life on King Street itself, set an example for other cities to follow, and is helping to jump-start the downtown as a place for people to enjoy being in, and to live and work in. That in turn helps to drive the city's economy, which does mean more jobs and property taxes. The new King streetscape is not just a "nice to have" - though it certainly is very nice to have.


Would I be cynical to point out that this is at least the second (if not more than that) 'rebuild King Street' project that Kitchener has launched in the last few decades. It seems that the new concrete barely had time to get scuffed and cracked before it was torn up yet again. It's a good thing Kitchener has Union Gas to bankroll it's home improvement projects. Let's hope they got it right this time.

[HillDweller]

Would I be cynical to point out that this is at least the second (if not more than that) 'rebuild King Street' project that Kitchener has launched in the last few decades. It seems that the new concrete barely had time to get scuffed and cracked before it was torn up yet again. It's a good thing Kitchener has Union Gas to bankroll it's home improvement projects. Let's hope they got it right this time.

It must be right this time. Waterloo is going to copy it, but Waterloo will have LRT down one side.

[mpd618]

Would I be cynical to point out that this is at least the second (if not more than that) 'rebuild King Street' project that Kitchener has launched in the last few decades. It seems that the new concrete barely had time to get scuffed and cracked before it was torn up yet again. It's a good thing Kitchener has Union Gas to bankroll it's home improvement projects. Let's hope they got it right this time.

Would it be cynical to point out that buildings have been previously put up downtown with the ostensible aim of improving it? I mean, surely Market Square is just as much of a building as, say, the Tannery? But somehow, the impact is really not the same.

There's a world of difference between the streetscape on King Street in downtown Kitchener and that currently in uptown Waterloo. I'm not sure how much more useful I can say about this, but my experience walking along the new downtown streetscape suggests to me that its designers have put together something that works very well. And it does not appear to be by accident.

[Ktown4ever]

1, a Movie Theatre
2, a Grocery Store
3, Bicycle lanes
4, Street food vendors (not just hotdogs)
5, A major retail attraction i.e. a Mountain Equipment co-op or something like that.

[glossgirl]

Wonderful Waterloo, it seems not that much has changed on the forum. I see many of the same people sitting back and putting their opinions out there on the internet. These opinions, while just that, sometimes seem to stem from assumption rather than facts. I find it disheartening to find people saying what downtown needs is mall type stores and blockbuster movie theatres, big box retailers and mega supermarkets. I personally think that Downtown Kitchener is on the right track and they are doing what they are doing at a most admirable pace. I relocated my business to Kitchener well over a year ago and it was the best move I ever made.

I would like to point out that there are many businesses open past 5 or 6 pm in the Downtown core. My store Gloss, (which carries Ben Sherman and many other premium lines found at Holt Renfrew) is open 7 days a week and my hours Monday - Friday are 11-8p.m. Rare Funk, my wonderful next door neighbour has extended hours, Taya Clothing is open later as well. The well respected Inception that was in business for over 8 years just recently closed but while they were operating, they carried Ben Sherman, Michael Kors and much more. I wonder why if everyone has the time on their hands to write what they would like to see, they don't actually pound the pavement and get downtown and see what is actually there.

I live Downtown, I work Downtown and I love Downtown Kitchener. There are definitely things that we could benefit from but big box corporations in Downtown, I don't think that's the answer. Look what has happened to Uptown Waterloo. Rents are sky high, driven up by companies like First Gulf. Small business has to fight to survive and I have seen too many friends and competitors have to shut their doors for good.

I agree a specialty grocery store would be lovely, an independent theatre would be fantastic, an updated Boathouse for Kevin Doyle to continue bringing music to the people, these would be amazing. But what Kitchener really needs is your support Wonderful Waterloo! Get out from behind your keyboards and support Downtown and Uptown independent business.

[mpd618]

These opinions, while just that, sometimes seem to stem from assumption rather than facts. I find it disheartening to find people saying what downtown needs is mall type stores and blockbuster movie theatres, big box retailers and mega supermarkets.

I'm not sure we're reading the same forum. The most important one of those things I think most of us want to see downtown is a regular, urban-format grocery store. I'm not sure why you're lumping movie theatres into the same category - as if people are talking about something massive and suburban.


But what Kitchener really needs is your support Wonderful Waterloo! Get out from behind your keyboards and support Downtown and Uptown independent business.

Most of us already do. Your assumptions are a little insulting, and your suggestion that we live "behind our keyboards" even more so.

Downtown is changing, and getting much better. There are more businesses that are open later, sure. There are more people downtown, more shops on King Street. The number of cafes downtown has more than doubled in the last two or three years. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be talking about what else can make downtown better.

[glossgirl]

Sorry to insult you Mpd618. I was insulted several times during this forum myself. I have read the entire 8 pages, having done so, I counted numerous times that people suggested large department stores, Holt Renfrew, blockbuster movie theatres and the like. We are in fact reading the same forum.

As for the keyboard remark, that was perhaps unfair and insulting. I apologize to any of the members who took this the wrong way. There was a wealth of suggestions that I think are wonderful and enriching. I was referring to the ideas of some of the members who think a more mall feel or massive and suburban feel as you refer to it as would be what Downtown needs. I think the charm of Downtown areas are the small boutiques, specialty grocers, antique shops, book stores, multi cultural restaurants, local pubs and lounges,artists and music venues. This is the Downtown that I hope to be a part of.

I notice that you are from Waterloo and I think it's wonderful that you make the trip to Kitchener to support the local economy. I would like to think that on some level we all want the same things for Kitchener. I know that I want to see it continue to grow and prosper. I would like to point out that I agree it is worth talking about, that is why I attend the BIA meetings and council meetings whenever I get a chance. Thanks for your feedback Mpd618!

[bcwessel]

I find it disheartening to find people saying what downtown needs is mall type stores and blockbuster movie theatres, big box retailers and mega supermarkets. I personally think that Downtown Kitchener is on the right track and they are doing what they are doing at a most admirable pace. I relocated my business to Kitchener well over a year ago and it was the best move I ever made.

I really don't think this is fair at all. You might want to re-read the contents of this thread again. I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of opinion favours an independent cinema, another Central Market located deeper downtown, a better range of apartment rental options, better schools, smaller retailers such as yourself ("boutique clothing store," "a small hardware store," "more rooftop patios"), and a stronger more complete urban form overall. The opening post of this thread expresses a need for more stores that one might find at the mall, but in no way is that opinion indicative of the rest of the discussion (some feel that many people won't frequent Downtown without those retail options. I disagree. I suspect I'm not the only one).

As far as the members of this forum needing to get out and support Downtown and Uptown more, I'd wager you'd have a hard time finding a group of more enthusiastic urban boosters anywhere. Take a look around the threads for the various events and goings-on which take place in the twin cores, and you'll quickly find excited commentary from satisfied festival-goers, pictures of crowds, often very flattering reviews on everything from dinner to flower shops, and a general sense of optimism that the urban places in our community have a bright future. In fact, a fair criticism might be that WonderfulWaterloo is TOO enthusiastic about Downtown and Uptown. We want more of it, and we want it yesterday. We want more people to get down there right now. We want more independent retail, more entertainment options, more public amenities to get everybody else as energized as we are. I can empathize with your general sentiment, but I think your post is pretty far off the mark.

[panamaniac]

+1, although if someone wanted to put a department store back downtown I would be quite happy. :RpS_wink:

[ViewFromThe42]

As you can tell from my name, I live in Uptown, and very much enjoy my choice to live here. I liked that there was a personal feel when I used to be able to go to Thrive and pick up some Firetrap or Guess clothes with what always felt like a very personal touch. My fiance and I enjoy recognizing the baristas at Matter of Taste for our Sunday morning snack, or the unique creations at Gourmet Pizza. It's a huge difference for us, growing up in the suburbs of Mississauga and Orleans, and a very welcome change we don't want to abandon. I am saddened to hear that rents are being driven up, and recall hearing concerns from Uptown BIA members when they spoke of their worries regarding construction of the LRT line. I wish there was less cycling of businesses in certain areas.

One wish I have is for both areas to expand upon that key aspect of urban living we enjoy, the uniqueness of it, the connection with the businesses. Shopping in Elora during their night shopping event last Christmas was a treat. It would be great to see more outreach from the shop owners, not just blaring about sales, but showing the character of the businesses they run, what they strive to achieve in this urban setting, and the regulars on both sides of the counter who make it work. Even better would be times when the owners were clearly working, to help establish that connection that creates loyal bonds.

I would tend to agree with the sentiment that many of us want our urban cores to succeed in every possible way, and indeed at times by wishing for what takes time to build to exist immediately and in a form and presence normally shaped by a generation of engagement. I spend time behind my keyboard, but when my fiance and I went to the job fair today, our number one focus was not salary, was not prestige employer names, nor was it a particular narrow career focus. It was to find employment opportunities that allowed us to continue living in this urban nest. Bills must be paid, and jobs must be found, but with luck they will happen for us here.

[glossgirl]

Hey BCWessel, thanks again for the quick feedback. I want to clear the air here about this thread and my past statements. I read through from start to finish and there were many times I shook my head in AGREEMENT, and thought yes good point that would be great to have. I found myself in favor of the majority of suggestions to be honest. The post that I put on the forum was addressed to the naysayers and the people that I feel are way off track. I was addressing the people asking for big box stores, blockbuster movies and misinformed people that don't realize that there are businesses open late. I wanted to open some eyes to the fact that there are retailers that sell Ben Sherman since it came up twice in this thread. I have had the opportunity to work closely with Wonderful Waterloo as I was the fashion show provider for the Groundhog Day meet up. I was able to work with KWAG, Andrew and Shawn. I have had the pleasure of hosting parties and events at Gloss that members from WW have attended and supported. Having said that I hope you can see that my post is not so far off the mark but perhaps more streamlined at the posts I felt were ignorant of the great community we do currently have. I am super excited about the growth and development we have in our twin cities! I am an active member of the community, the retail attraction program in Kitchener, the BIA and a supporter of local business. I'm very happy to see so many other like-minded individuals.

I hope to see many of you at the grand Opening of my Salon in October. The Downtown Octoberfest tents and midway are fun upcoming events that I hope many participate in as well!

[BuildingScout]

I hope to see many of you at the grand Opening of my Salon in October.

Can you post more details about this?

[plam]

The post that I put on the forum was addressed to the naysayers and the people that I feel are way off track. I was addressing the people asking for big box stores, blockbuster movies and misinformed people that don't realize that there are businesses open late.

Yes, I think it's great to see thriving independent business in the cores. This being the Internet, though, there will always be people who want different things. I think it's important to think about peoples' expressed desires and then agree or not; we can't expect everyone to have the same opinion.

[Ktown4ever]

For the record...

When in my previous post i said:

1, a Movie Theatre (I didn't mean it had to be blockbuster movies)
2, a Grocery Store (it doesn't have to be megga)
3, Bicycle lanes
4, Street food vendors (not just hotdogs)
5, A major retail attraction i.e. a Mountain Equipment co-op or something like that. (I certainly don't mean to suggest Big Box.)

I might have added Boutique shops - but I think Downtown Kitchener has so many awesome Boutiques ---I thought it unnecessary to add to the list.

This thread by the way, asks participants to list 5 things they think Downtown needs. By answering this question, is not to suggest that downtown sucks. I think downtown Kitchener rocks, but it's always worth while to explore the things that could make it even better. It's also interesting to see what other people think it needs.

[Waterlooer]

It would also be nice if they built an arena in downtown for the Kitchener Rangers once the Aud can no longer expand.

[bcwessel]

It would also be nice if they built an arena in downtown for the Kitchener Rangers once the Aud can no longer expand.

Possible future limitations in available capital aside, it appears to be a foregone conclusion that, once the Aud has finally run its course (and the renovations theirs, and the ones after that theirs), a new facility will be built somewhere Downtown (or at least Downtown adjacent in a fittingly urban context). How long we will take to get there appears to be anybody's guess: mine is that we're a lot longer off than many people here would prefer.

[mossycup]

I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I'd almost like a fast food restaurant. I mean, I don't want a urban wasteland of fast food joints, but I miss Harvey's Uptown, just a place where you can get a quick bite. I do love Subway and that's about it for fast food.

[mossycup]

I don't know ... 15$ for a salad? Worth it for sure, but not inexpensive.

[Anderson3133]

Is the McDonald's no longer in the Benton/King building?

Also,

1) Grocery store, preferably something like the Sobeys Urban Fresh stores or the Freshco in Regent Park in Toronto
- I know this may not happen given the Kitchener Market's presence in the downtown core
2) A La Carte Vendors, much like the ones recently discontinued in Toronto
3) Boutique furniture stores, especially if condo development continues to grow
4) Cooking Classes/cooking stores
5) More office development

[ViewFromThe42]

Is the McDonald's no longer in the Benton/King building?

Also,

3) Boutique furniture stores, especially if condo development continues to grow


The McDonald's is still there.

As for boutique furniture stores, check out Schreiter's at Charles and Gaukel for three floors of tremendous boutique furniture selection.

[Anderson3133]

The McDonald's is still there.

As for boutique furniture stores, check out Schreiter's at Charles and Gaukel for three floors of tremendous boutique furniture selection.

Yeah, I love Schreiter's loft stuff. Where is Gaukel located though? I've never heard of it.

[panamaniac]

Really?! It is the street that connects the entrance to Victoria Park with City Hall, passing the bus terminal. Schreiters is across Charles from the terminal, at Gaukel. I have a relative who still uses a sofa set that was purchased at Schreiters in 1948! It has been recovered and redesigned three times (only), but they sure don't build 'em like that anymore!

[Anderson3133]

Really?! It is the street that connects the entrance to Victoria Park with City Hall, passing the bus terminal. Schreiters is across Charles from the terminal, at Gaukel. I have a relative who still uses a sofa set that was purchased at Schreiters in 1948! It has been recovered and redesigned three times (only), but they sure don't build 'em like that anymore!

I don't venture downtown too often, admittedly.

[panamaniac]

I don't venture downtown too often, admittedly.

Too bad - by far the best bit of the Region! :RpS_thumbsup:

[Anderson3133]

Too bad - by far the best bit of the Region! :RpS_thumbsup:

I'm such a dunce. I misread your first post in a way that I thought Gaukel was the name of a furniture store. :RpS_mellow:

I know exactly where Schreiters is, I just didn't know Gaukel was the street perpendicular to Charles.

It's been a long day. :RpS_rolleyes:

[mpd618]

I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I'd almost like a fast food restaurant. I mean, I don't want a urban wasteland of fast food joints, but I miss Harvey's Uptown, just a place where you can get a quick bite. I do love Subway and that's about it for fast food.

Along these lines, I think downtown Kitchener could use a Five Guys (http://fiveguys.ca/en).

[Anderson3133]

Along these lines, I think downtown Kitchener could use a Five Guys (http://fiveguys.ca/en).

Actually, I really enjoy Hero Burger. They offer a wide variety of toppings and are still growing expansively in the Toronto region.
Hero Burgers (http://www.heroburgers.com/index.php)

[ViewFromThe42]

You're both in luck! Soon we will have "The Works" for your diverse burger needs.

...in Uptown.

[panamaniac]

You're both in luck! Soon we will have "The Works" for your diverse burger needs.

...in Uptown.

Having sampled both the Works and Five Guys on more occasions than I care to admit, I have to give the "sinfully good" award to Five Guys. The Works is very good and has a more creative and varied menu but falls a bit short on the "gloriously greasy" scale of true hamburger goodness.

[Anderson3133]

You're both in luck! Soon we will have "The Works" for your diverse burger needs.

...in Uptown.

I completely forgot about that. My friend has been raving about their burgers for years since he has moved to Ottawa.

[mpd618]

You're both in luck! Soon we will have "The Works" for your diverse burger needs.

...in Uptown.

Setting aside the location, it's totally different - The Works is a gourmet burger restaurant, while Five Guys is no-frills fast food.

[dscassel]

I'd be reasonably happy if more of the restaurants and take out places were open later on evenings and on weekends. Downtown's a wasteland outside banker's hours.

[zanate]

I'd be reasonably happy if more of the restaurants and take out places were open later on evenings and on weekends. Downtown's a wasteland outside banker's hours.

Not my experience last night, to be honest. The weather may have helped. Bustling... no. Occupied, definitely. More bikes at the racks on King St. near Queen at 8pm than at 6pm.

[UrbanWaterloo]

I was in Washington DC last week and tried out a Five Guys for the first time. Although I enjoyed the toppings selection (green peppers :RpS_thumbup:), I wasn't impressed with the burger. The patty was a bit small and the bun was squished together. There was no combo discount so the cost of my meal was $13, in part because I ordered a large fries to share (it would have been closer to $10 with regular size). At the same price point I feel Fuddruckers (http://www.fuddruckers.com/index.php), another American burger chain, gives you better value for your money. You get less fries, but the burger is larger and I like being able to top it myself. The value proposition is especially true if you prefer drinking beer over soda. There's only one Fuddruckers in Canada though, in Saskatoon (http://www.fuddruckers.com/findus/index_mapresults.php?c=Saskatchewan&s=Canada&r=250), so it's a bit of a stretch to expect one in Downtown Kitchener anytime soon.

Even though I wouldn't be a regular Five Guys customer, I'd still welcome them Downtown simply because we need more of everything in Waterloo Region's cores. Another chain I think could do well Downtown is King's Buffet (http://kingsbuffet.com/) (and they're local).


Five Guys Downtown Alexandria - April 4, 2012

First a look down their King Street.
http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria/Downtown%20Alexandria%20-%20April%204,%202012%20-%201%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria%20-%20April%204,%202012%20-%201%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria%20-%20April%204,%202012%20-%203%20R.jpg

Peace sign for the camera.
http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria%20-%20April%204,%202012%20-%204a%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria%20-%20April%204,%202012%20-%205%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria/Five%20Guys%20Downtown%20Alexandria%20-%20April%204,%202012%20-%206b%20R.jpg


Fuddruckers Downtown Washington DC - April 3, 2012

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%201a2%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%201b%20R.jpg

Located in Chinatown
http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%201c%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%202a%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%202c%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%202d%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%203b%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%204a%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%204b%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%204c%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%205b%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%206b%20R.jpg

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Outside%20Waterloo%20Region/United%20States%20of%20America/2012/Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC/Fuddruckers%20Downtown%20Washington%20DC%20-%20April%203,%202012%20-%206a%20R.jpg

[markster]

Of all things...

I randomly visited that Fuddruckers when I went for a 3 day trip to Washington a couple years ago.

I recall it being good, but I don't have any lasting impression of it, beyond it being a fairly standard gourmet burger.

[.FLH.]

I don't think our downtown's need American Burger chains to make them viable:RpS_rolleyes:

[panamaniac]

Of all things...

I randomly visited that Fuddruckers when I went for a 3 day trip to Washington a couple years ago.

I recall it being good, but I don't have any lasting impression of it, beyond it being a fairly standard gourmet burger.

I must have walked past that location of Fuddruckers a hundred times when I lived in D.C. but I must admit I was never tempted to go in. So many other terrific restaurants in the neighbourhood plus, strangely, the name of the place really put me off.