Waterloo Town Square Mall

[UrbanWaterloo]

Waterloo Town Square Mall - "The Shops"
Discuss the current state, and future ideas for the Shops at Waterloo Town Square.
This property is in a very prime location and has a lot of potential.
www.waterlootownsquare.com

695

Site Plan Fall 2011 (http://www.waterlootownsquare.com/pdf/ICSC_waterloo_LR.pdf)
http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Retail/Uptown%20Waterloo/Waterloo%20Town%20Square/Waterloo%20Town%20Square%20Site%20Plan%20Fall%2020 11.jpg

Site Plan 2010 (http://www.firstgulf.com/pdfs/Waterloo_Town_Square.pdf)
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-SitePlanDownl-1.jpg

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I saw an ad in the Waterloo Chronicle today that we are losing yet another locally owned clothing store - Fudges (ladies clothing) in Waterloo Town Square is closing. Again - closing sale - everything is being liquidated.

The enclosed mall part of Waterloo Town Square has not done well in the past year, with many business closing up. On the other hand, the Willis Way portion where the stores have separate entrances to the street has done well and vacancies have filled up quickly. This brings up the argument: should the enclosed mall be razed? Redeveloped into office space with retail at grade? Kept as is? Hope it will turn around once again? One thing is for sure, the grocery store and Willis Way shops need to stay!

[WatDot]

Should be multi-storey as it was originally planned. Offices on levels above, bottom level retail. Their office space along King is all leased as far as I know. Have people working above the "mall" retail level will bring a great deal of regular traffic and be profitable for First Gulf, IMO.

[Spokes]

Very profitable!

I agree about the multi level. Maybe something with a few different tiers and a combination of office and residential. And the retail should wrap around the entire perimeter of WTS

[jay]

Well I doubt they will tear down what was just re-done a couple years ago. What I think will help is maybe some sort of signage on King St so people know whats in there. Also hopefully Moxies will generate more people in the mall, but I don't think that is the issue considering both Cora's and Valu-Mart attract quite a bit of people.

All the stores that closed are what I would call sub standard stores. I know a lot of people here hate chain stores but I think they need some chain stores within the mall. That shoe store seems busy and so does Shoppers and that Gadgets place.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Well I doubt they will tear down what was just re-done a couple years ago. What I think will help is maybe some sort of signage on King St so people know whats in there. Also hopefully Moxies will generate more people in the mall, but I don't think that is the issue considering both Cora's and Valu-Mart attract quite a bit of people.

All the stores that closed are what I would call sub standard stores. I know a lot of people here hate chain stores but I think they need some chain stores within the mall. That shoe store seems busy and so does Shoppers and that Gadgets place.

I remember when Waterloo Square used to have a lot of chain stores - Coles Books, Laura Secord, Bell World, Grandma Lees, Blacks, A&W, Hallmark...but they have all since disappeared. I'm not sure if it was just a case of them not meeting profitable sales levels, or First Gulf not renewing leases to bring in independent upscale shops...or a combination of both?

[UrbanWaterloo]

For reference, here's the latest site plan: http://www.firstgulf.com/pdfs/Waterloo_Town_Square.pdf

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-SitePlanDownl-1.jpg

[Spokes]

I remember when Waterloo Square used to have a lot of chain stores - Coles Books, Laura Secord, Bell World, Grandma Lees, Blacks, A&W, Hallmark...but they have all since disappeared. I'm not sure if it was just a case of them not meeting profitable sales levels, or First Gulf not renewing leases to bring in independent upscale shops...or a combination of both?

Ya I remember that too. I can't imagine at this point a lot of businesses would think its not profitable to have a location in uptown, but maybe compared to the malls, for them it is.

[jay]

I think in time it will get more busy especially if they move away from what I would call 'senior" only stores. Have a couple because there is a lot of them in the area that shop there quite frequently. But once Barrelyards gets going, 144 Park, the42 there will be more and more people living in the area that hopefully would shop there.

Keepers is actually switching management right now and are closing the Cambridge store but keeping the Shops location.

[uptownfoodcritic]

/rant mode

As much as we would like to think that the Uptown core is a bustling centre of retail, the reality is that the majority of shoppers in the core live within walking distance. There is no where near a comparable level of foot traffic to the malls in the area. This is one of the main reasons the chain stores left the core. It is also one of the reasons why there is still plenty of vacant retail space available for lease in the core.

The Valu-Mart and Shopper's serve a local (within a 2k range) almost exclusively. It is my understanding that the Shopper's is considering closing the location in the future but I hope that will not happen. Also, the Valu-Mart used to be a Zehr's but was converted to the lower tier brand because it simply was not a profitable store.

More office space is a good thing but Uptown still suffers from the same problem it did 20 years ago. It is essentially a small town core serving a population base of around 10k people that has a limited number of shoppers coming in from the surrounding area. That surrounding subset becomes harder and harder to attract with the increasing suburban shopping build up occuring these days (Conestoga Mall expansion, Wal-Mart development by Farmer's Market, Ira Needles Super Plaza development).

The Cambridge cores have never recovered (and likely never will) from the disaster of HWY 24. Kitchener downtown was gutted by the Fairway road development.

The one thing Uptown has going for it, right now, is the increased density that is happening. That and true, unique attractor businesses like Vincenzo's opening in the Bauer space. Chain stores are not going to bring more people to the core. They will suck money out of it though (and then leave like they have in the past).

/rant mode off

[WatDot]

The one thing Uptown has going for it, right now, is the increased density that is happening. That and true, unique attractor businesses like Vincenzo's opening in the Bauer space. Chain stores are not going to bring more people to the core. They will suck money out of it though (and then leave like they have in the past).

General chain stores in my opinion will not work. They also most definitely won't bring people to the core as you state.
I think higher-end Chains like Moxies will. I also think you need unique stores that draw people... things you won't find in a mall. All of the Ivanhoe and Fairview Cadillac malls are all the same crap. First Gulf needs to develop a mall/retail centre for this location that is unique if it wants to survive. It's not an easy task but I think they are on the right path for the most part. More development in the core is only going to strength things which is happening.

[jay]

I agree the malls all have the same stores. Uptown like you said would need unique chains. American Apparel is a good example of that. It's not in the malls and will attract people who want to shop there. I was a little disappointed to see Coach go into Fairview mall. That would be a perfect store to put in Uptown.

If First Gulf can attract some unique chain stores it would be a huge benefit for them and Uptown. I hope that in the future if Lululemon opens a store in Waterloo it goes to Uptown.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I also think you need unique stores that draw people... things you won't find in a mall. All of the Ivanhoe and Fairview Cadillac malls are all the same crap.

Interestingly enough, Ivanhoe Cambridge used to own a 50% stake in Waterloo Town Square in the mid 90's.

[mindset]

For reference, here's the latest site plan: http://www.firstgulf.com/pdfs/Waterloo_Town_Square.pdf

[site plan image]

Hey everyone, first-time poster here! :)

I see something wrong with this site plan. American Apparel isn't opening on Willis Way; it's opening on King Street (unit C106 on the map, marked as vacant) beside jBU. Hardwood flooring has already been put in and product is arriving early next week. Vinyl signs have been put up in windows, and I assume a physical sign will be installed as well. AA is set to open the same day H&M will open in Conestoga Mall -- Thursday, March 18th. A pretty historic retail day in Waterloo, if you ask me ;)

AA should encourage some Uptown foot traffic for sure!

[uptownfoodcritic]

If First Gulf can attract some unique chain stores it would be a huge benefit for them and Uptown. I hope that in the future if Lululemon opens a store in Waterloo it goes to Uptown.

It was my understanding that Lululemon was less than impressed with their numbers when they had the Christmas season store in the Town Square a couple of years ago.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Hey everyone, first-time poster here! :)!

Welcome to the forum!

[jay]

It was my understanding that Lululemon was less than impressed with their numbers when they had the Christmas season store in the Town Square a couple of years ago.

That could be judged different ways. The product they offered was all last years styles or older (actually older then the outlet at Vaughan Mills) so the fact that sales were bad could be because they did't have anything anyone wanted.

It's like they assumed nobody from KW drove to Toronto to shop for Lululemon, and they just brought in some scraps that didn't sell at their Toronto stores. That is why I think the sales were bad. Every girl I know that is obsessed with that store didn't buy anything for that reason.

I believe they could sell quite enough to justify a store in this area if they brought in a proper store.

[WatDot]

Also did they advertise at all? I heard about it through word of mouth. Ended up buying Christmas gifts there.

Speaking of Christmas. This past season I went to Waterloo Town Square or "The Shoppes".... majority of stores were closed at 7pm on a Wednesday. If you don't put in full effort, don't expect great returns.

[Spokes]

Also did they advertise at all? I heard about it through word of mouth. Ended up buying Christmas gifts there.

Speaking of Christmas. This past season I went to Waterloo Town Square or "The Shoppes".... majority of stores were closed at 7pm on a Wednesday. If you don't put in full effort, don't expect great returns.

I don't remember any major marketing, which was a mistake in my opinion. Not enough people knew.

Ya the hours are definitely an issue, that's for sure. The later the hours are, the more lively the core will be later in the evening.

[Spokes]

Hey everyone, first-time poster here! :)

I see something wrong with this site plan. American Apparel isn't opening on Willis Way; it's opening on King Street (unit C106 on the map, marked as vacant) beside jBU. Hardwood flooring has already been put in and product is arriving early next week. Vinyl signs have been put up in windows, and I assume a physical sign will be installed as well. AA is set to open the same day H&M will open in Conestoga Mall -- Thursday, March 18th. A pretty historic retail day in Waterloo, if you ask me ;)

AA should encourage some Uptown foot traffic for sure!

Welcome!

Ya they must have switched locations after this site plan was made.

[jay]

Ya they didn't advertise. So with that and what I mentioned above I'm not sure how they could determine there isn't a market.

The hours are a issue at the Bauer buildings also. Most of them are closed by 7 and hardly any are open on Sunday which I think is stupid, especially in the summer when people are more likely to walk around and shop.

[Spokes]

Ya they didn't advertise. So with that and what I mentioned above I'm not sure how they could determine there isn't a market.

The hours are a issue at the Bauer buildings also. Most of them are closed by 7 and hardly any are open on Sunday which I think is stupid, especially in the summer when people are more likely to walk around and shop.

I don't think the hours are issues at one particular location or another, but core-wide. Same problem downtown kitchener, most things are dead past 6 or 7.

As for the advertising, I feel like in Waterloo Region we really drop the ball on advertising good things and marketing them properly. The one exception I would make was with the42, that was a fantastic marketing campaign and look how that turned out!

[urbandreamer]

Well, Waterloo really is a suburban city. K-W-C area reminds me more of Mississauga/Brampton than it does Toronto--the car is king, and there's a few old small towns connected by 6 lane highways, strip plazas, etc.

I knew over 5000 people in the K-W region from my work, but I have NEVER seen any of them in Uptown Waterloo--I lived around the corner from what became Bauer Lofts. All these co-workers shopped at malls, and if they wanted a "downtown" experience, they went to Guelph, Stratford or Toronto. Uptown is just a small old-style town strip with a bunch of office workers and students hanging around, the students being those that live in the area or are passing through on the bus.

I think the solution for Uptown Square is to bulldoze it. Yep, get rid of some retail! So start by selling attractive 6-10 storey condo or apartment buildings to be built on parking lots, then as each phase is complete--facing street properly, perhaps a retail unit at base--tear down part of the mall. It's out-moded, and not needed here.

[jay]

It's more busy these days but your not wrong with that statement. But the reality is that mall isn't going anywhere for a long time. It just doesn't make sense for them to rip it down yet.

Getting rid of the retail and building 6-10 story apartments is a good idea but will take time. Developers will slowing starting buying more land on this strip once all the fringe land is gone. The waterloo hotel block has already got bought, so in a couple years something will go there.

It still has a small town feel to it, but it's changing and within 10 years it will be quite busy I predict with all the development planned.

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

Well, Waterloo really is a suburban city. K-W-C area reminds me more of Mississauga/Brampton than it does Toronto--the car is king, and there's a few old small towns connected by 6 lane highways, strip plazas, etc.

Correction: There is only one 6 lane arterial, and that's Hespeler Road. Most arterials here are 4 lanes, but a bunch of them carry as much traffic as most of the 6 lane roads you find all over the GTA.

I don't think it's as bad as Mississauga or Brampton. I think the Tampa - St. Petersburg - Clearwater metro area in Florida is a better comparison. It's predominately suburban, very disjointed, and there's a downtown heirarchy of sorts. There are plenty of Hespeler Road style strips to go around and Tarpoon Springs is to them what St. Jacobs is to us, LOL. However, the Tampa Bay region is about 4-5 times the size of Waterloo Region (2.5 million) and there is a discernable skyline at least in Tampa.

But all and all, you have the idea. You get more of a big city feel on highway 8 or 85 than you do anywhere downtown or uptown.


I think the solution for Uptown Square is to bulldoze it. Yep, get rid of some retail! So start by selling attractive 6-10 storey condo or apartment buildings to be built on parking lots, then as each phase is complete--facing street properly, perhaps a retail unit at base--tear down part of the mall. It's out-moded, and not needed here.

I agree. Malls have no place downtown. I would hope that we go more agressive than 6-10 floors though. And in a location like that, I think office space would be better, given its centrality and access to the iXpress/future LRT.

[Spokes]

I agree. Malls have no place downtown. I would hope that we go more agressive than 6-10 floors though. And in a location like that, I think office space would be better, given its centrality and access to the iXpress/future LRT.

I'd go with a combo of office and residential. Or maybe a two tower kind of thing, I think residential is important but so too is office (if you can get the tenants.)

[UrbanWaterloo]

AA is tomorrow, images when im home.

[jay]

I thought it was today :) Walked by and it looks real close to opening.

[Spokes]

AA looked as close to being open as you can be when I was uptown yesterday. They had the door propped open and it was attracting a lot of people to just take a peek inside. Hopefully it'll be the same when they open officially.

[UrbanWaterloo]

American Apparel - March 17, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-5.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-4.jpg


American Apparel - March 18, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-3.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-2.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetSout.jpg

[dunkalunk]

Great! I won't have to go to Toronto to buy a shiny gold unitard! :P

[viciousllamas]

I think the solution for Uptown Square is to bulldoze it. Yep, get rid of some retail! So start by selling attractive 6-10 storey condo or apartment buildings to be built on parking lots, then as each phase is complete--facing street properly, perhaps a retail unit at base--tear down part of the mall. It's out-moded, and not needed here.

Bulldoze? No way! Uptown is unique & has charm. My favourite place in the city. The last thing you need is to reconstruct that into condo space. The amount of people I know who go to Uptown and the stores for a unique shopping experience is overwhelming.

[mpd618]

Bulldoze? No way! Uptown is unique & has charm. My favourite place in the city. The last thing you need is to reconstruct that into condo space. The amount of people I know who go to Uptown and the stores for a unique shopping experience is overwhelming.

I'm not sure I buy into bulldozing, but in any case it was referring to the single-story mall, not to any other part of Uptown.

[uptownfoodcritic]

The Mall building currently has 7 empty storefronts and has never (to my knowledge) been completely rented out.

It also recently lost their island newspaper/lotto kiosk.

While I was a proponent of keeping an inside space for the seniors in the core, I think this space has been a failure since the rebuild and would support it being demolished and replaced with some mixed use buildings that would complement the public square.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

If it the mall eventually gets demolished (which I think will definitely happen within the next 5-10 years), I think it's critical that the grocery store remains. Perhaps we can get a smaller format urban grocery store.

It is proven that First Gulf has lower vacancy rates with its street-fronting retail portions of Waterloo Town Square/Willis Way/King Street with reputable and popular tenants (Lilies White, American Apparel, Tadpole, LCBO). Add mixed uses to this, and its a formula for much greater success. Uptown is no longer a place for a suburban format shopping mall - people don't come to Uptown to shop at a mall.

[IEFBR14]

I think it's critical that the grocery store remains. Perhaps we can get a smaller format urban grocery store.
Yes to the first sentence; no to the second. We need a chain grocery store in Uptown. We'll need one even more once the new condos at 144 Park, Barrellands, etc. open up. Otherwise this will just encourage people to drive to the burbs in search of basic groceries and staples at competitive prices. Vincenzo's is fine for what it is, but I wouldn't want to depend on them for fresh fruit and vegetables nor would I want to pay their prices for staples like pasta, rice, etc. From what I can see Valu-Mart seems to do a good business in the mall. I'd hate to see them go.

[Spokes]

Ya I think we need a full scale grocer uptown too. The problem is, for a Lablaws owned store to be there, they'd want a location to move BEFORE the current location was torn down. My thoughts at least.

[garthdanlor]

Yeah, we need a proper grocery store in Uptown. The current ValuMart is just about the right size, and when you combine it with Vincenzos, Eating Well Organically and even Central, you can do all your grocery shopping without heading to the mega-stores in the burbs.

Not sure if such a recently redeveloped property will be replaced in only 5 years...maybe 10??

[mpd618]

Urban format means only that: urban format. fronting the street, perhaps two-storey, with more prepared foods, a more compact assortment of the rest, and perhaps open 24 hours. Sobeys Urban Fresh is an example of a chain urban format store. If the store doesn't have to pay exorbitant rent (e.g. for free parking), there's no reason for the prices to be much different than anywhere else. I'd say New City Supermarket is an urban format grocery store, albeit one with a different focus.

That said, I think Valu-Mart is an asset to Uptown and we should not be pushing it away. If you watch, you'll see a very large proportion of the people shopping there to have backpacks or other evidence of having travelled by means other than car.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Urban format means only that: urban format. fronting the street, perhaps two-storey, with more prepared foods, a more compact assortment of the rest, and perhaps open 24 hours. Sobeys Urban Fresh is an example of a chain urban format store.

That's exactly something like I was thinking. A chain grocery store, but a smaller urban format that fits in with the surrounding urban environment. Does Loblaws have a similar urban store to Sobeys Urban Fresh? Loblaws might have certain rights to operating a grocery store on First Gulf's property Uptown, and I'm sure they would want to be a part of the mall if it gets redesigned.

[mpd618]

Does Loblaws have a similar urban store to Sobeys Urban Fresh? Loblaws might have certain rights to operating a grocery store on First Gulf's property Uptown, and I'm sure they would want to be a part of the mall if it gets redesigned.

I'm not aware of a Loblaws equivalent, but if they want to compete in the urban market with Sobeys and others, they're going to have to start somewhere....

[IEFBR14]

The problem is, for a Lablaws owned store to be there, they'd want a location to move BEFORE the current location was torn down. I'm not sure that's a show, er, shop-stopper. IIRC the Zehrs at the old mall was shut down while the ValuMart was built in the same space. And in Toronto the Loblaws at Bayview Village Mall was shut down for a couple of years as that mall was refurbished and a new larger, more "urban" Loblaws replaced it.


even Central, you can do all your grocery shopping without heading to the mega-stores in the burbs.
If you watch, you'll see a very large proportion of the people shopping there to have backpacks or other evidence of having travelled by means other than car. Central is too far away for pedestrians and cyclists who live in Uptown Waterloo. People who walk or cycle to go food shopping can't carry nearly as much stuff as they could put into a car trunk. As a result they also tend to food shop more frequently, perhaps every 2 or 3 days. So for them distance matters and an extra kilometer (to Central) could easily make the difference between walking/biking and driving.

[Greg Moore]

That said, I think Valu-Mart is an asset to Uptown and we should not be pushing it away. If you watch, you'll see a very large proportion of the people shopping there to have backpacks or other evidence of having travelled by means other than car.
A lot of students from Laurier and UW shop there and many do walk. I shop there if I happen to be Uptown, and I happen to be Uptown a lot as it's my favourite LCBO. :) The Valu-Mart is clean and has good fresh food which to me is the most important. Food Basics is the opposite in my experience.

It wouldn't take much to make that store more attractive, or that side of the mall. Lose the old parcel pickup area and make that a glass wall and an exterior entrance.

[Spokes]

I'm not sure that's a show, er, shop-stopper. IIRC the Zehrs at the old mall was shut down while the ValuMart was built in the same space. And in Toronto the Loblaws at Bayview Village Mall was shut down for a couple of years as that mall was refurbished and a new larger, more "urban" Loblaws replaced it.

Im not sure those are the same thing. It wouldnt have taken very long to convert the Zehrs to the ValuMart. We are talking about tearing the existing mall and rebuilding, that will take years. And there are no other options near by which wouldnt be the case in toronto.

[IEFBR14]

We are talking about tearing the existing mall and rebuilding, that will take years.Perhaps some creative thinking could address this. For instance, build the new grocery store along the south side of Willis Way where there was supposed to be a hotel. Tear down the ValuMart part of the existing mall to replace the parking spots lost to the new grocery store. Etc.


And there are no other options near by which wouldnt be the case in toronto.As it happens I lived in Bayview Village prior to and during the time the mall was being refurbished. As a historical note the original BV mall and original Waterloo mall were very much alike, right down to the single storey sprawl, dowdy stores and even the K-Mart anchors. And when BV mall was refurbished the LCBO there was the largest in Ontario. It very likely served as the prototype for the new LCBO here which looks very similar although somewhat smaller. So yes, there may be some parallels between the two.

The big difference is that almost no one walks/cycles to BV mall and the nearest alternative grocery stores (by coincidence also a ValuMart and a Galteri's Italian grocery like Vincenzo's) were a good 45 minute walk away. But then nothing in suburban Toronto is within walking distance for any but the most dedicated walkers/cyclists with lots of spare time. That's one of the reasons we finally moved back to Waterloo.

[Spokes]

Perhaps some creative thinking could address this. For instance, build the new grocery store along the south side of Willis Way where there was supposed to be a hotel. Tear down the ValuMart part of the existing mall to replace the parking spots lost to the new grocery store. Etc.

Hadn't thought of that. And it's a great idea. When do we start?

[garthdanlor]

That's exactly something like I was thinking. A chain grocery store, but a smaller urban format that fits in with the surrounding urban environment. Does Loblaws have a similar urban store to Sobeys Urban Fresh? Loblaws might have certain rights to operating a grocery store on First Gulf's property Uptown, and I'm sure they would want to be a part of the mall if it gets redesigned.
By all means, make it have street fronting and call it "Urban" but why smaller than the current valumart? We have a growing population in Uptown and we should be properly serviced by a full serviced grocery. The urban styled grocery stores that I have used have mostly had limited selection, were pricey, and put far too much emphasis and floor space into their often fatty and sodium injected prepared foods section. Remember, this would be the primary grocery to hundreds of people.

[Spokes]

By all means, make it have street fronting and call it "Urban" but why smaller than the current valumart? We have a growing population in Uptown and we should be properly serviced by a full serviced grocery. The urban styled grocery stores that I have used have mostly had limited selection, were pricey, and put far too much emphasis and floor space into their often fatty and sodium injected prepared foods section. Remember, this would be the primary grocery to hundreds of people.

Ya I'd echo that too. Im all for the urban format grocers, I like them, but their selection can be limited. I think they're a fantastic compliment to a full scale grocer. As long as there is one of those uptown, and then maybe another small one or two, that would work perfectly.

[garthdanlor]

Central is too far away for pedestrians and cyclists who live in Uptown Waterloo. People who walk or cycle to go food shopping can't carry nearly as much stuff as they could put into a car trunk. As a result they also tend to food shop more frequently, perhaps every 2 or 3 days. So for them distance matters and an extra kilometer (to Central) could easily make the difference between walking/biking and driving.
Too far to be a regular destination, but certainly not for a semi-regular visit. I live in Belmont Villiage area, and I have no problems walking to Valumart,Vincenzos, Eating well, Central, or even Sobeys (all within 20 minutes walk). But, yes, the further the shop the less I carry so it is essential to have a proper grocery store right in Uptown.

[smably]

I often walk to Central from downtown Kitchener. It's not too bad unless you're carrying a lot of groceries, but the bus works in those situations. There are often people waiting for the bus with groceries at that stop. I've also seen quite a few bikes at the store.

I think they get a lot more pedestrian and cyclist traffic from downtown (vs uptown) because there's no grocery store downtown. At the same time, though, I imagine that quite a few people who live downtown drive to the suburbs to buy groceries, but might walk or cycle if there were a more centrally located store. I'm not saying that Valu-Mart isn't important (because it really is), but I wouldn't underestimate the importance of Central either.

[IEFBR14]

Got a letter in today's mail that the ScotiaBank at Waterloo Square Mall is moving south to 115 King St S just to the north of the LCBO (see the map on the first page of this thread.) The old branch closes at noon on Friday 9th July and the new branch opens on Monday 12th July. Hopefully that includes the safe deposit boxes ;)

If you're a customer of the old branch and you need new cheques printed, wait because you'll be getting a supply of new ones for free.

[Spokes]

Fantastic news!!! Great to actually get some concrete dates about this since it was rumored for so long. Hopefully Moxies follows. Any word on that?

[uptownfoodcritic]

I hate the Valu-Mart. Except for fresh veg and fruit it is useless to me. I use the Sobey's at Weber and Bridgeport instead.

[Spokes]

Looked like workers work out working on the new ScotiaBank location.

And American Apparel looked fairly busy too. Their signage looks great as well!

[WatDot]

Looked like workers work out working on the new ScotiaBank location.

And American Apparel looked fairly busy too. Their signage looks great as well!

Did the workers work out start at American Apparel? :p

[Spokes]

Did the workers work out start at American Apparel? :p

Ya they bought some clothes, decked out in AA gear ;)

[UrbanWaterloo]

April 11, 2010

95 King Street South - American Apparel (Now That It's Open)
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-9.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-6.jpg

115 King Street South - Scotiabank
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-3.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-2.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreetSou.jpg

[Spokes]

American Apparel looks great!! Both downtown and uptown need more of this!

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

There's no one in American Apparel...I'm sure it's nothing to worry about though, as AA is a destination store and will draw customers in from a large area. I'm kind of surprised they didn't put up a bigger sign on the building for the store - like the large black "helvetica" font American Apparel sign illuminated from behind. What time of the day did you take these pictures Urban?

[UrbanWaterloo]

5:30PM on Sunday. The store was already closed by then, hence the lack of people. Although often even when establishments are open, I'll purposely wait until most individuals are out of view in order to get a better shot of the building itself.

Speaking of hours though, I noticed on the sign it's open until 9PM on Saturdays: awesome boost for night traffic, we can only hope more stores follow suit!

[Spokes]

5:30PM on Sunday. The store was already closed by then, hence the lack of people. Although often even when establishments are open, I'll purposely wait until most individuals are out of view in order to get a better shot of the building itself.

Speaking of hours though, I noticed on the sign it's open until 9PM on Saturdays: awesome boost for night traffic, we can only hope more stores follow suit!

That's a huge bonus!! Good for them. I think all it will take is a hand full of stores extending hours like that and then many more will follow suit. And when bigger things like Moxies are open late, that will entice them to do so as well.

[UrbanWaterloo]

April 22, 2010

95 King Street South - American Apparel - Installing An Exterior Sign
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-10.jpg

115 King Street South - Scotiabank - "Coming Soon"
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Catching The Painter In The Act
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-5.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-4.jpg

[Spokes]

Great news to see Scotia progressing. And that AA sign looks fantastic!

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

95 King Street South - American Apparel - Installing An Exterior Sign
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-95KingStreetS-10.jpg


My wishes were answered! Glad to see they are installing a larger AA sign. If you didn't know the area, you would barely know the store is there. I drove by yesterday and it was not visible at all from the road quickly driving by.

[SP!RE]

It's a pretty obnoxious sign. I prefer the signage typicall used for AA-- black typeface on a white background (or white on black) but I guess the backlit/background approach wasn't considered classy enough for the location. At least it will garner high visibility for the store.

http://seanmiller.blogs.com/whizdumb/images/2007/08/01/american_apparel.jpg

Was about time Waterloo got an American Apparel :)

[Spokes]

While it may not be the "typical" AA signage, I think it still looks good. Definitely not obnoxious. Was there something about it that made you think that?

[Spokes]

I'm curious to see what effect Moxies has if it even comes to WTS that is. Is a restaurant like that, one that would draw people to it, enough that different businesses would want to set up shop in the mall there?

I personally think that's the mall's biggest problem, it has almost nothing that people want to go to, nothing that is a destination. There are a couple things that are appealing, Coras, Valu Mart, Shoppers, Matter of Taste. But the rest is not that appealing. When Lulu Lemon was there, it caused the mall to be a destination, and Im sure the mall's visitors jumped significantly. So Im just wondering what's it going to take to get something of significance there? Because as much as we'd all like, the mall in it's current form isn't going anywhere any time soon.

[jay]

Moxies will help. It's there first chain store in KW and there is nothing like it in Uptown.

The mall needs draws like Lululemon, funny thing is when that store opened on it's test base it offered all last years styles and what not and it still drew people in. American Apparel is a good start but 2 more stores like that will do wonders for Uptown. I think the amount of people in 5 years it will justify the stores with all the condos/hotel being built.

[Oliver.Ashton@Remax.net]

I had always hoped HM would take the corner location where Channers is. Can you imagine what that would have done for traffic?

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I had always hoped HM would take the corner location where Channers is. Can you imagine what that would have done for traffic?

I don't think the unit was big enough.

[WatDot]

Moxies will help. It's there first chain store in KW and there is nothing like it in Uptown.

The mall needs draws like Lululemon, funny thing is when that store opened on it's test base it offered all last years styles and what not and it still drew people in. American Apparel is a good start but 2 more stores like that will do wonders for Uptown. I think the amount of people in 5 years it will justify the stores with all the condos/hotel being built.

Imagine a Moxies AND a Lulu Lemon store... like a match made in heaven.
I am hoping mostly for a Moxies though as you Bauer and Spokes are.

[Spokes]

Imagine a Moxies AND a Lulu Lemon store... like a match made in heaven.
I am hoping mostly for a Moxies though as you Bauer and Spokes are.

Im really hoping it'll help draw people, and I think it will, but will it draw them into the mall is the question.

[UrbanWaterloo]

115 King Street South - Scotiabank - May 6, 2010
New location opens Friday July 9, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-12.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-13.jpg

Sign up at current location (75 King Street South).
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-14.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

115 King Street South - Scotiabank - May 31, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/95a19e67.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/9a1a4910.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

75 King Street South Unit 14A - SASS - June 2, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-75KingStreetS-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-75KingStreetSout.jpg

[CompassRose]

I dunno - what this town really needs is a better shoe store. I had high hopes of Heel Boy, but they really aren't stepping up. Something along the lines of It Boutique in Guelph, or even Alexandria's Shoes in St. Jacobs, only more so... It's hard to find anything unusual or fashion-forward at all without going online (hello, hideous shipping costs) or to Toronto, and I really, really wish there was someplace local where I could get edgy (but not risqué) footwear.

[Spokes]

75 King Street South Unit 14A - SASS - June 2, 2010

Which unit is this? What used to be there? Could be a good addition, as long as enough people know about it, they seem to be offering good brands.

[jay]

The main issue with the stores in WTS is that there is no signage outside, and the hours.

Nobody knows what's in there. Hopefully when Moxies goes in it will attract more people to the mall, like cora's does.

14A used to be a woman's fashion store. So Sass is pretty much going be the same store with maybe different brands.

[Spokes]

The main issue with the stores in WTS is that there is no signage outside, and the hours.

Nobody knows what's in there. Hopefully when Moxies goes in it will attract more people to the mall, like cora's does.

14A used to be a woman's fashion store. So Sass is pretty much going be the same store with maybe different brands.

Yup I agree, people don't know enough about what's there. Im not sure if it's a marketing issue for the individual stores to address, or the mall as a whole, but its a problem that won't go away over night, and one that isn't new.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I dunno - what this town really needs is a better shoe store. I had high hopes of Heel Boy, but they really aren't stepping up. Something along the lines of It Boutique in Guelph, or even Alexandria's Shoes in St. Jacobs, only more so... It's hard to find anything unusual or fashion-forward at all without going online (hello, hideous shipping costs) or to Toronto, and I really, really wish there was someplace local where I could get edgy (but not risqué) footwear.

I think heel boy isn't what it used to be. It's a very small store, and it seems like their inventory and brand selection is getting smaller.


Which unit is this? What used to be there? Could be a good addition, as long as enough people know about it, they seem to be offering good brands.

Jay's right - used to be some independent ladies clothing store, but I forget the name. Is it a risky decision to open a similar store? There's already enough fine older ladies clothing stores in the Waterloo Square develpment - Erban Corner, David Findlay, Fudges, and probably more I'm missing. We need more stores targeted at younger demographics - especially inside the mall.

[panamaniac]

I believe that Fudge's is no longer open.

[KLM]

Waterloo Town Square was busy when Zehrs was there couple years ago and I liked it,but seems WTS is one of those malls that dont attract much interest, like Frederick and Stanley Park Mall.Maybe combination of stores who knows.

I would rather hang out outside ( on beloved concrete slab lol ) than inside.

Even with whole idea having `square` outside I still think is a tough sell to people( well it attracted skaters big time, by the way are they still gathering ?).i see some events going on but under City of Waterloo stick - events are forced.

Spending 3 mil on that square is just pure nonsense,and they poured concrete yak! SO much about ingenuity of city of waterloo planners and architects.

I wish to see mixed development where WTS is ,main floor to be mall and then on top of it multistore condo/business center.

[panamaniac]

Well, if there's no amalgamation and Waterloo ever gets around to having a City Hall again, this would be the perfect place to put it.

[glossgirl]

That skateboard park is a real downfall altogether. Waterloo Town Square has always been a tough go.... I realize there was only 60 -70 parking spaces previously but seriously WTF? Hope Waterloo can figure it out... Downtown Kitchener is where it's at!

[Spokes]

Waterloo Town Square was busy when Zehrs was there couple years ago and I liked it,but seems WTS is one of those malls that dont attract much interest, like Frederick and Stanley Park Mall.Maybe combination of stores who knows.

I would rather hang out outside ( on beloved concrete slab lol ) than inside.

Even with whole idea having `square` outside I still think is a tough sell to people( well it attracted skaters big time, by the way are they still gathering ?).i see some events going on but under City of Waterloo stick - events are forced.

Spending 3 mil on that square is just pure nonsense,and they poured concrete yak! SO much about ingenuity of city of waterloo planners and architects.

I wish to see mixed development where WTS is ,main floor to be mall and then on top of it multistore condo/business center.

Without getting too much off topic (there's a thread for the public square) I've noticed a steady increase in the number of people that use the square from day one. I think Moxies will only help that.

That being said, you're right, a mixed use project is the best option here. But I dont think it's a matter of building on top of it, I think it's starting from scratch. A mall will never be ideal here, the retail should point out not in. I think you'd want retail out along Willis and Caroline and Erb and shops/restaurants facing the square. That being said, Im skeptical we'd see the mall get torn down any time soon given all the work that's been done on the willis way side, and the public square now.

[Spokes]

Well, if there's no amalgamation and Waterloo ever gets around to having a City Hall again, this would be the perfect place to put it.

I think so too, but as long as it's something of significant size/design. You'd hate to see something else that isn't ideal put in such a perfect location.

[jay]

I agree with Spokes, it won't get ripped down anytime soon. If anything they will change the stores inside and maybe get more traffic with all the new development in the area. There will lots of new people living in uptown in the next 5-10 years

[Spokes]

I agree with Spokes, it won't get ripped down anytime soon. If anything they will change the stores inside and maybe get more traffic with all the new development in the area. There will lots of new people living in uptown in the next 5-10 years

Exactly, make due with what we've got form wise. Its obviously not ideal but lets use it, but make it as good as possible with what's inside. Cora's helps a lot, Moxies will too. Id love to see SDM replaced with another restaurant and then have one or two anchor retailers (LuLu Lemon? If they come here it'll be to a mall though) and then fill in the rest.

[jay]

I wouldn't say that Lululemon would go to a mall by default. The company has many non mall locations.

I could really see them doing something like American Apparel. There is the open retail spot beside Channers that is open still. Whatever they did though would have to be a street front location.

[Urbanomicon]

If anything they will change the stores inside and maybe get more traffic with all the new development in the area.

The first thing they should change (if they want more vehicular traffic anyways) is to make Caroline and Erb two way streets. I avoid the area around Waterloo Town Square when I'm driving because I hate one way streets (three left turns to make a left anyone?), and I doubt I'm the only one.

[mpd618]

The first thing they should change (if they want more vehicular traffic anyways) is to make Caroline and Erb two way streets. I avoid the area around Waterloo Town Square when I'm driving because I hate one way streets (three left turns to make a left anyone?), and I doubt I'm the only one.

Same goes for pedestrian traffic. The only people the current arrangement is good for is those driving straight through downtown without stopping.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Hope Waterloo can figure it out... Downtown Kitchener is where it's at!

Please, let's not turn this into a which-city/downtown-is-better debate. Those only ended up turning ugly on SkyscraperPage, and part of the purpose of Wonderful Waterloo is/was to eliminate all that nonsense. Thanks.

[Spokes]

I wouldn't say that Lululemon would go to a mall by default. The company has many non mall locations.

I could really see them doing something like American Apparel. There is the open retail spot beside Channers that is open still. Whatever they did though would have to be a street front location.

Why would it have to be? That's the ideal situation sure, but from a business perspective, a mall would be much better. Not that I agree with that though.

[uptownfoodcritic]

I fear that Gloss will find out the pitfalls of downtown Kitchener all too soon. The rent is cheaper for a reason.

BTW, I was talking to some food industry folks and they all seem to think that Moxie's is a go for this fall. No official word yet though.

[jay]

We will know next month once Scotia Bank moves to the new location for sure. I'm pretty sure it's happening.

[Spokes]

So looking at the image of the public square over here (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/137-Uptown-Waterloo-Public-Square-|-Completed?p=8262#post8262) and our discussion about getting people into the mall got me thinking. When Moxies arrives, I hope their primary entrance is inside the mall. I cant see how they could have that as their only entrance though unfortunately since the mall would close before the restaurant would. But if that were the case it'd force people into the mall to enter the restaurant.

Does Coras have an entrance outside as well as inside the mall? If so it isn't anything major because it's something I've never noticed.

[jay]

There is a door outside for Cora's but it is locked, with a note to use the inside door. Cora's is only opened to 3pm so it is not a big deal.

Moxies will probably have a outside entrance on the Willis Way side. Or they will work something out with the mall for after hours.

[Spokes]

I hadn't thought of Willis Way. I assumed it would be facing the Square. Which is completely based on my hope that they're going to allow large windows and a patio to flow out into the square.

[WatDot]

My friends and I have been discussing the potential Moxies. As regulars of the Winston Churchill/401 Moxies, we questioned the layout of the patio for the proposed site. My thinking is that they may make large garage type windows that open up to an area on the top part of square where patio furniture is currently residing. I think they would have room for 5-6 patio sets in that outdoor area. If you ever saw the space Scotia Bank is moving into on King Street, First Gulf actually had one of those type of windows installed thinking a restaurant would lease.

Other thoughts are; Who says they won't knock down a wall and redesign their space? Is it possible for a roof top patio?

One thing is clear, Moxies does not spare any expense. All the locations I have been to involved a considerable amount of design investment. What are your thoughts on the potential patio for the Moxies at Waterloo Town Square? (Think we are on the same wave length Spokes)

[Spokes]

What I had originally thought would involve knocking down that wall and installing big windows with a door that would allow movement out onto the patio. I hadnt thought of a roof top patio. It'd be awesome. Im not sure if they could do it though.

The garage door would work well too allowing people inside to feel as if they're outside on nice days. My only issue with that is it doesn't feel within Moxies style. I could see something like that for a more casual restaurant, or a pub. (Shoppers Drug Mart space anyone??)

You're absolutely right though, Moxies never spares any expense when it comes to design.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Scotiabank (115 King Street South) - June 23, 2010

Exterior Sign Installation
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-15.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-22.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

Scotiabank (115 King Street South) - July 6, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare-115KingStreet-23.jpg

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[WatDot]

This seems to be a slightly dated (late 2009) article but it is additional confirmation we are seeking. I know many (including Spokes) will be happy to read this article: http://can-restaurantnews.com/content/publish/national/Moxie.shtml

Moxie's boss bullish about the future

CALGARY—Moxie’s is the only restaurant company president Laurids Skaarup has ever worked for, and based on his passion for the business, likely the only one. His background as store manager and company trainer for London Drugs is a long way from restaurant chain president, a position he’s held for the last decade.

Moxie’s Classic Grill and the two-year-old Chop Steak and Fish Bar, with three locations in Western Canada, are both in the premium casual segment, as is the company’s upscale sport bar chain Shark Club Bar and Grill. “We’re doing far better than we feared. Premium casual…has far better value than fine dining. Customers get a lot of value for they money. The level of food and service in premium casual is strong,” Skaarup said.

Moxie’s has 58 locations in Canada, 38 franchised and 20 corporate, in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario. While Moxie’s sales are “down slightly” in 2008, Skaarup said he remains “bullish” about the future of the company heading into another round of carefully planned expansion.

“We’re continuing to do new deals in 2009 and 2010. We understand that these are tough times and we’re being cautious. We believe in what were doing and continue to look for new opportunities,” Skaarup said. In Western Canada, new locations are in the works for Abbotsford, B.C. and another in Calgary in 2010.

Customers in Ontario can look for restaurants in Brampton and Ottawa this year, and another in the nation’s capital in 2010, along with ones in Waterloo and Mississauga.

In Atlantic Canada, the company recently opened a Dartmouth, N.S. location, but no further expansion is in the works there.
“Our goal has been to grow at a measured place of about seven new stores a year. With the downturn, we’re a little less than that. By 2010, I’d be happy to be back on that pace,” Skaarup said. “We’re staying the course. The Canadian marketplace loves what we’re doing. There is no need to come up with lower prices or cheap plates.”

In 2007, Northland started up Chop Steak and Fish Bar, a fine casual steakhouse restaurant, with three locations operating in Winnipeg, Edmonton and Richmond, B.C. They are all located at Sandman Hotel and Suites properties run by Northland, which explains why they are all so geographically spread out.

After observing the dominance of The Keg in the market, Skaarup said the company realized there was an opportunity to introduce another player in the upscale steakhouse segment in Canada. “Sales have consistently been ahead of expectation. We still need to refine some of our approaches and systems, but it seems to be an absolute homerun,” Skaarup said.

The goal is to develop Chop into a chain of restaurants through franchising, which is to begin in two years. A location is planned for Kelowna, B.C. this year and two more in Calgary in 2010. Diners in the Greater Toronto Area will get their chance to try Chop next year when a location opens adjacent to a Sandman Hotel. No Chop locations are planned for Atlantic Canada.

Skaarup is confident the company will make it through this recession just fine. He admits that while day-to-day restaurant spending is down, spending on special events and occasions is up in 2009. He said his secret to surviving is to treat customers and employees better than ever to ensure their satisfaction. “Don’t cut corners with employees and guests and love them even more. People need a break more than they ever have.”

[UrbanWaterloo]

Former Scotiabank Location, Rumoured Moxies (75 King Street South - Unit 41) - July 29, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare75KingStreetSouth-Unit41-FormerScotiabankLocationRumouredMoxies-July292010-1.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Retail/WaterlooTownSquare75KingStreetSouth-Unit41-FormerScotiabankLocationRumouredMoxies-July292010-4.jpg

[SP!RE]

The logo at the top of this thread (and each page) is outdated-- they switched it long ago to the image I've posted below. Anyone mod want to change it? Photo credit goes to www.waterlootownsquare.com

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/419/wts.jpg

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

The logo at the top of this thread (and each page) is outdated-- they switched it long ago to the image I've posted below. Anyone mod want to change it? Photo credit goes to www.waterlootownsquare.com

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/419/wts.jpg

When I created the thread, I used the old logo on purpose to emphasize the encolsed mall portion itself and to generate ideas on what to do with it. The enclosed mall portion has not done as well as the rest of the street front developments. However, the thread has since grown to include posts from the entire WTS property (i.e. American Apparel, new Scotiabank location) so this would be appropriate. I think the old logo should still be included to emphasize this discussion, although clearly denoted as the former logo. Perhaps this could evolve into a separate post on the history of Waterloo Town Square/The Shops and what it once was. Thanks for bringing this up!

[jay]

I was at the mall today and they have the entrance to the former ScotiaBank all drywalled up. Seems they are getting ready to renovate the store to the rumoured Moxies.

*crosses fingers* Uptown needs a restaurant like this. I know not everyone agrees with that, but there is too many "high end" places and they need some mid-class restaurants. Not to mention it will be the only one in KW so it should bring in people to the core and more importantly the mall. (which needs help bad)

[Spokes]

I was at the mall today and they have the entrance to the former ScotiaBank all drywalled up. Seems they are getting ready to renovate the store to the rumoured Moxies.

*crosses fingers* Uptown needs a restaurant like this. I know not everyone agrees with that, but there is too many "high end" places and they need some mid-class restaurants. Not to mention it will be the only one in KW so it should bring in people to the core and more importantly the mall. (which needs help bad)

I personally think it's going to be a big draw too.

A lot of times here on WW we've talked about things that will bring people into the core. This, hands down, is one of them.

[WatDot]

The Area is still very big on franchise chains. Moxies will be the best pick for this location. It is the perfect blend of franchise name and independent attention to detail. I have strong faith they will design this location well and incorporate the public square nicely. They also have a massive pool of employees down the street, which will work well with their hiring standards. I think Moxies is making a very wise decision of locating here. I just hope they can establish a patio of decent size.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

they also have a massive pool of employees down the street, which will work well with their hiring standards.

wlu?

[WatDot]

Yup. Potential employees that should of been though.

[UrbanWaterloo]

75 King Street South - August 15, 2010

Are they installing a skylight?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/Waterloo/WaterlooTownSquare-75KingStreetSouth-August152010-1.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/Waterloo/WaterlooTownSquare-75KingStreetSouth-August152010-2.jpg

Unit 14A - SASS | Opening Fall 2010
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/Waterloo/WaterlooTownSquare-75KingStreetSouthUnit14A-SASS-August152010.jpg

[Spokes]

That'd be great to get another sky light in there! Hopefully that's what's happening

[waterloo_local]

Interesting. I heard Moxies has pulled out of the development, even though they still list it on their website as "coming". I'm pretty sure my info is reliable, but we'll see!

[jay]

I hope not. That wouldn't be good.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/Waterloo/WaterlooTownSquare-75KingStreetSouth-August152010-2.jpg


This picture is not a good sign. All these units are vacant, including the one in the far right corner (not shown in this picture, but as far as I know, it's vacant). The mall portion of Waterloo Town Square is borderline dead. I think First Gulf should stop putting money into it (such as installing a skylight if that's what they're so doing), and just completely redevelop the mall portion. No wonder Moxies is contemplating pulling out. Just look at how successful the King Street retail portion is. I think it's a no brainer what First Gulf's next move should be.

[Spokes]

Interesting. I heard Moxies has pulled out of the development, even though they still list it on their website as "coming". I'm pretty sure my info is reliable, but we'll see!

Where are you getting your info?

[Spokes]

This picture is not a good sign. All these units are vacant, including the one in the far right corner (not shown in this picture, but as far as I know, it's vacant). The mall portion of Waterloo Town Square is borderline dead. I think First Gulf should stop putting money into it (such as installing a skylight if that's what they're so doing), and just completely redevelop the mall portion. No wonder Moxies is contemplating pulling out. Just look at how successful the King Street retail portion is. I think it's a no brainer what First Gulf's next move should be.

The only problem with redeveloping the whole thing is think abuot how much money they've put into the Willis Way part of it. They're not going to just get rid of all of that.

[DHLawrence]

Can they tear down one part without touching another? Maybe retrofit the Willis Way part so that it can be included in the new portion?

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

That was what I was thinking. Leave the successful parts - Willis Way street front retail, Valu-Mart, Cora's, but get rid of the rest and redevelop it into more street fronting retail/mixed use. Perhaps they could extend Albert Street through to Willis Way?

[mpd618]

Perhaps they could extend Albert Street through to Willis Way?

That's something I've also thought is a good idea. It doesn't have to be extended as a street for cars, though. Daylighting Laurel Creek is another idea to think about.

[BuildingScout]

but get rid of the rest and redevelop it into more street fronting retail/mixed use.

Yeap. Make the entire mall be street front, particularly Caroline as well as open a large coffee shop facing Waterloo square.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

open a large coffee shop facing Waterloo square.

That would just involve relocating Matter of Taste :RpS_biggrin:

[BuildingScout]

That would just involve relocating Matter of Taste :RpS_biggrin:

I forget that Matter of Taste is even there. Also I've never felt like having a cup of joe inside a mall. Mater of Taste is a great coffee shop and one only needs to look at the traffic at Williams Cafe in Kitchener City Hall to see what a difference street exposure would make.

[taylortbb]

I forget that Matter of Taste is even there. Also I've never felt like having a cup of joe inside a mall. Mater of Taste is a great coffee shop and one only needs to look at the traffic at Williams Cafe in Kitchener City Hall to see what a difference street exposure would make.

Or just look at their Kitchener location. Surely they must see the huge difference in traffic between the two locations.

[mpd618]

Or just look at their Kitchener location. Surely they must see the huge difference in traffic between the two locations.

I've seen Matter of Taste surprisingly busy in the mall. And their downtown location feels too hidden away, and not very inviting (to me, anyway).

[KevinL]

I would imagine the mall stores do very well on ValuMart and SDM shoppers. And Cora's does particularly well on the weekends, I think.

[fin2limb]

I've seen Matter of Taste surprisingly busy in the mall. And their downtown location feels too hidden away, and not very inviting (to me, anyway).

I've noticed this too and was quite surprised. And I agree about the downtown Kitchener location. I love their coffee, and I go there often to pick one up. But I rarely ever sit in to drink it. The place is a little too dark for me.. I think they should have moved the front counter to the back of the store, and put the tables at front. This would allow more natural light to shine in the sitting area. Some lighter colors wouldn't hurt either.

[Trogdor]

I was in the Town Square for Buskers and I noticed a couple changes. First, Matter of Taste just updated their look and they seem to be focusing a bit more on lunch now. I don't have pictures, but the new look is a lot better I think...more café style. Also, some new clothing store opened in the mall and it looks like there's steady construction going on in the former Scotiabank. There's still a lot of vacancy in the mall though...doesn't look like it's doing too great.

[BuildingScout]

Yeap. Make the entire mall be street front, particularly Caroline as well as open a large coffee shop facing Waterloo square.

Following up on that, tear down the fortress like overhang at the mall entrances, change the corridors to look like pedestrian streets (think coblestones) and have a sliding roof that can cover those "streets" in the winter (this is commonplace in Europe). Also place several restaurants in the mall with outside sitting on the condition that they serve breakfast, lunch and dinner. This ensures that the mall seems alive from early in the morning and well into the night: last sitting is usually around 9:30pm with guests leaving around 10:30 or 11:00pm. This makes the entire mall "street facing" and a continuation of Willy's way. But of course the chance of this happening are nil, retail investors are rarely this daring.

See this example from Belgium, which is the most visited retail location in Brussels.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/1401/12/1401_12_1---Saint-Hubertus-Gallery--Brussels--Belgium_web.jpg?&k=Saint+Hubertus+Gallery%2C+Brussels%2C+Belgium

[Spokes]

Now THAT would be cool!!

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

You mean something like Old Quebec Street (http://www.oldquebecstreet.com/)in Guelph? That's probably as close as we'd get to your example of Brussels.

More pictures: Old Quebec Street (http://www.terra-view.com/refresh/index.php?q=node/14) (go to bottom of page)

[BuildingScout]

Indeed, thanks for the pointer.

[garthdanlor]

Following up on that, tear down the fortress like overhang at the mall entrances, change the corridors to look like pedestrian streets (think coblestones) and have a sliding roof that can cover those "streets" in the winter (this is commonplace in Europe). Also place several restaurants in the mall with outside sitting on the condition that they serve breakfast, lunch and dinner. This ensures that the mall seems alive from early in the morning and well into the night: last sitting is usually around 9:30pm with guests leaving around 10:30 or 11:00pm. This makes the entire mall "street facing" and a continuation of Willy's way. But of course the chance of this happening are nil, retail investors are rarely this daring.
Yeah, I love these sorts of shopping arcades. I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing plans for this being done in Downtown Kitchener...obviously just plans.


See this example from Belgium, which is the most visited retail location in Brussels.

This is really nice. I walked through it when I was in Brussels. It was February and the roof was closed...I didn't even realize that it was retractable until now.

[Spokes]

You mean something like Old Quebec Street (http://www.oldquebecstreet.com/)in Guelph? That's probably as close as we'd get to your example of Brussels.

More pictures: Old Quebec Street (http://www.terra-view.com/refresh/index.php?q=node/14) (go to bottom of page)

That would be awesome here, and it'd work quite well too. Have two "streets" criss cross in the mall, one entering from Caroline and the square, and the other Willis way and the parking lot, or have it extend all the way up to Albert st.

What's on the upper levels in Old Quebec st, do you know?

[SP!RE]

Dentist practise and other such things, and offices, are above the shops in Old Quebec Street.

[DHLawrence]

One warning before the concept drawings are issued, though: Old Quebec Street was given its look ages ago and was only just now completely filled. They have had a horrible time attracting and keeping tenants--not much different from WTS.

[mpd618]

One warning before the concept drawings are issued, though: Old Quebec Street was given its look ages ago and was only just now completely filled. They have had a horrible time attracting and keeping tenants--not much different from WTS.

To me the obvious reason is that the Old Quebec Street mall is a dead-end. I think the feel (and economics) of the place would be different if it were instead a through "street" between important streets.

[waterloo_local]

They definitely need to figure out what to do with Waterloo Town Square. First Gulf doesn't have a lot of great retail spaces in their portfolio. They don't seem to know how to be creative with spaces.

Inside the mall it is just dead and vacant and I really don't know anyone who goes there except a random outing to Thai Sun or to Starbucks.

With Moxie's pulling away from this space, we'll see what ends up in the old Scotia part. It might be a good opportunity for them to reconfigure the entrances

[jay]

Moxies actually backed out officially?

[KevinL]

What sort of clientele does Valu-Mart get? I would think there'd be some grocery shoppers who stick around to see what else is on offer...

[jay]

They have a mix crowd. I shop there because I live in Uptown and I do go to Shoppers, but most of the mall is older woman clothing stores. The store hours are weird and they mostly cater to the seniors in the area.

[smably]

Moxies actually backed out officially?
I'd like to know about this too. The First Gulf site plan (linked at the top of this thread) still says Moxie's "opening 2010" in that unit. Then again, it doesn't show SASS, so maybe it's just out of date.

[waterloo_local]

The site plan still shows Moxies but I have reliable knowledge that says Moxies definitely pulled out. Explains why there is nothing happening in the Scotiabank unit

Perhaps they can get a similar restaurant, ex. Milestones (though they are coming to Boardwalk)

[SP!RE]

Didn't a recent restaurant (which closed) have a sign up saying to look out for a new concept from the family coming soon in KW?

What if a new restaurant from a past Uptown restaurateur opened here? It's an interesting thought. Though I wonder if a chain restaurant will end up going in the spot instead.

[TripleQ]

Didn't a recent restaurant (which closed) have a sign up saying to look out for a new concept from the family coming soon in KW?

What if a new restaurant from a past Uptown restaurateur opened here? It's an interesting thought. Though I wonder if a chain restaurant will end up going in the spot instead.

You might be thinking of King St Trio which is going here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=king+st&sll=43.425897,-80.484675&sspn=0.002899,0.006019&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=King+St+E,+Kitchener,+Waterloo+Regional+Muni cipality,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.464289,-80.522138&spn=0.001441,0.003009&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=43.464378,-80.522164&panoid=yI7OKPZaFKQetjMLJ7K5Tw&cbp=12,71.33,,0,4.93)

[urbandreamer]

WTS needs to be pulled. In its place--student housing, retirement homes, rental apartment buildings and condo apartment buildings. Maybe even a boutique hotel and office complex. Retail at base, build a parking structure or two and remove all surface parking. Reinstate a proper street grid.

2000-3000 residents. 10-12s max. Build out over the next decade.

Then, build more 6-10s residential with retail along Caroline St, basically connecting the Bauer Complex to WTS area. Same goes for Regina St strip.

[Spokes]

I hope Moxies didn't pull out. That'd be a major blow to uptown waterloo. waterloo_local, you always bring bad news, whats up with that haha.

Urbandreamer, that's quite an idea, and I'd love to see it, but if they decided to go that way, its not happening any time soon. I think with the money they've sunk into Willis way and WTS as a whole, First Gulf is probably committed to it as is for now. Which is too bad.

[urbandreamer]

A major blow? Why? Moxies is a lame suburban chain. Uptown has more exciting local-based restaurants instead.

[Spokes]

A major blow? Why? Moxies is a lame suburban chain. Uptown has more exciting local-based restaurants instead.

Because it would have been a great addition in my opinion. As for a lame suburban chain, your call, I disagree.

Uptown would be great with local based restaurants, in addition to chains.

[DHLawrence]

A healthy mix is necessary. The chains are a source of reliability for those who aren't locals--they attract suburbanites downtown. And then, when they're leaving the chain restaurant, "Oh hey, *name of local restaurant*. We should go there next time."

[Spokes]

Ya chains will provide legitimacy to the core. If an established chain comes to the core, people will think that it's got strength.

[fin2limb]

A major blow? Why? Moxies is a lame suburban chain. Uptown has more exciting local-based restaurants instead.

I with Spokes on this. Yes, Moxies is a suburban chain. But it's one of the betters ones, and it would definitely attract the students and young professionals. It could be worse.. like Boston Pizza, or Crabby Joes! :puke:

[DHLawrence]

I'm quite fond of Boston Pizza, thank you very much :P

A good fit for Waterloo would probably be Pickle Barrel. They tend to pick highly trafficked and affluent areas--Yonge-Dundas, Yonge-Eglinton, Yorkdale, Sherway Gardens. Uptown would be a good match for them. They also would have been a good fit for the bank at King and Frederick that Crabby Joe's currently occupies; their decor is a good match for the architecture of that building.

[IEFBR14]

A good fit for Waterloo would probably be Pickle Barrel. They tend to pick highly trafficked and affluent areas--Yonge-Dundas, Yonge-Eglinton, Yorkdale, Sherway Gardens.
You left out their original location in a strip mall in suburbia on Leslie St between Finch and Steeles. It's been around since the 1970s and has always been exceptionally busy. That's an affluent area, but devoid of businesses and schools, etc., yet they'd get lots of lunch traffic. I could never figure out where those folks came from. Of course in the evening local residents would swarm to the PB like flies to honey. You could never get in without a decent wait even as they expanded the restaurant repeatedly.

Back in the 1980s they also opened an upscale version in the same mall but for some reason it was a total flop and they closed it. Point being that it's tough finding a restaurant concept that works universally. I suspect that an upper scale -- but not high-end -- restaurant would work better in Uptown than a lower-end chain.

[Spokes]

You left out their original location in a strip mall in suburbia on Leslie St between Finch and Steeles. It's been around since the 1970s and has always been exceptionally busy. That's an affluent area, but devoid of businesses and schools, etc., yet they'd get lots of lunch traffic. I could never figure out where those folks came from. Of course in the evening local residents would swarm to the PB like flies to honey. You could never get in without a decent wait even as they expanded the restaurant repeatedly.

Back in the 1980s they also opened an upscale version in the same mall but for some reason it was a total flop and they closed it. Point being that it's tough finding a restaurant concept that works universally. I suspect that an upper scale -- but not high-end -- restaurant would work better in Uptown than a lower-end chain.


I think they'd both work. I dont think its a good idea to say some types would work and others wouldn't. I think variety is what's going to make the core(s) successful.

[metropolis]

JBU (Just Between Us), a high-end women's clothing store that moved in along King St Uptown about 2 years ago from one of the units at Kitchener city hall has closed it's doors. There is a note on the door thanking patrons for their business and saying the owners had decided to do something else with their lives. The place is cleared out.

Seems like another blow to Gulf.

[TripleQ]

JBU (Just Between Us), a high-end women's clothing store that moved in along King St Uptown about 2 years ago from one of the units at Kitchener city hall has closed it's doors. There is a note on the door thanking patrons for their business and saying the owners had decided to do something else with their lives. The place is cleared out.

Seems like another blow to Gulf.

Seems like their plan to go super-high end in WTS and the surrounds is catching up to them. Don't know if the area was quite ready for so many high ends stores.

[BuildingScout]

Seems like their plan to go super-high end in WTS and the surrounds is catching up to them. Don't know if the area was quite ready for so many high ends stores.

The problem is that they are expensive stores, not high end stores. Selling overpriced formal wear for old ladies is not the same as a high end store. Say, a high end store could be a boutique bicycle manufacturer selling bikes at $1,500+.

[waterloo_local]

[QUOTE=Spokes;13973]I hope Moxies didn't pull out. That'd be a major blow to uptown waterloo. waterloo_local, you always bring bad news, whats up with that haha.

Always bring bad news.... it's just the info that is passed my way!

[Spokes]

Always bring bad news.... it's just the info that is passed my way!

I was joking a bit, just saying how it is. Between Moxies and 247 King North, you've informed us of two cancelled projects.

[ruud]

I apologize for the question, but has Moxies officially pulled out of WTS or is it still speculation?

[garthdanlor]

A healthy mix is necessary. The chains are a source of reliability for those who aren't locals--they attract suburbanites downtown. And then, when they're leaving the chain restaurant, "Oh hey, *name of local restaurant*. We should go there next time."
Yeah, I think this is about right. Brand familiarity obviously makes people feel comfortable in an unfamiliar environment...how else could you explain so many NA tourists eating in Burger King or McDonald's when they are abroad (or even just visiting other NA cities)?

On the other hand, the problem with chains is that they are chains and often in found in other parts of the city more convenient/comfortable/familiar to suburban consumers so wouldn't necessarily be a draw to the Downtown/Uptown. Kitchener used to be full of well known (at the time) chains (Eatons, Robinsons, Sears, Kresges, Woolworths, Marks & Spencers, Coles, etc) and we all know what happened there. I guess the key is to get the right mix of independent shops, restaurants, and pubs combined with the extremely popular or unique (to the area) chains. I think Moxies qualifies as the latter and would do quite well. Have to admit though that Moxies really wasn't my cup of of tea...thought the food was mediocre and the atmosphere felt like an upscale Hooters!

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I suspect that an upper scale -- but not high-end -- restaurant would work better in Uptown than a lower-end chain.

Really? Look at Cora's. Always packed.

[Spokes]

Yeah, I think this is about right. Brand familiarity obviously makes people feel comfortable in an unfamiliar environment...how else could you explain so many NA tourists eating in Burger King or McDonald's when they are abroad (or even just visiting other NA cities)?

On the other hand, the problem with chains is that they are chains and often in found in other parts of the city more convenient/comfortable/familiar to suburban consumers so wouldn't necessarily be a draw to the Downtown/Uptown. Kitchener used to be full of well known (at the time) chains (Eatons, Robinsons, Sears, Kresges, Woolworths, Marks & Spencers, Coles, etc) and we all know what happened there. I guess the key is to get the right mix of independent shops, restaurants, and pubs combined with the extremely popular or unique (to the area) chains. I think Moxies qualifies as the latter and would do quite well. Have to admit though that Moxies really wasn't my cup of of tea...thought the food was mediocre and the atmosphere felt like an upscale Hooters!

That had less to do with the stores that were downtown and more to do with the climate of the city at that point in time.

[garthdanlor]

That had less to do with the stores that were downtown and more to do with the climate of the city at that point in time.
Point is that having a well known chain in the core is no guarantee of success, and that the conditions that lead to these chains fleeing the cores in the late 80s/early 90s have, if anything, intensified over the last 20 years with the further expansion of suburban malls, strip plazas, and power centres. Just pop the Bay in either core, and see how fast it fails. Doesn't mean that chains can't be successful in Uptown/Downtown, but it becomes much more difficult if there is competition from the same chain elsewhere in the city, as we all know where the average suburban consumer prefers to spend their money. Ultimately, we won't see the cores becoming really attractive to chains once again until we actually have a critical mass of people living within walking distance (or quick transit trip) of the cores, as we can't rely on attracting suburban consumers. Fortunately that time doesn't appear to be too far off...

[Spokes]

You're absolutely right that its no guarantee of success.

The one BIG difference is the (slow) change in attitude and refocusing of efforts towards the cores. You're right, if the Bay were in either core it'd fail. Do it in 10 years and it wouldn't. Like you said, it requires people close by to support it. That's something that lacks, but is changing, in both uptown and downtown. WTS Mall as it is now could be successful if the right stores were there, and more importantly, there was a larger population base.

Would I rather see it changed, of course, but it can still work as is. Maybe just not yet.

[WatDot]

I with Spokes on this. Yes, Moxies is a suburban chain. But it's one of the betters ones, and it would definitely attract the students and young professionals.

Moxies is a great transition business for Uptown. Yes it has a big brand name but their attention to decor and design is on par with higher-end restaurants. Would bring lots of people Uptown and keep lots of people there IMO.

[Spokes]

Moxies is a great transition business for Uptown. Yes it has a big brand name but their attention to decor and design is on par with higher-end restaurants. Would bring lots of people Uptown and keep lots of people there IMO.

Not to mention that it's the only one in the Region and therefore anyone who likes Moxies and would want to go there and not drive to Guelph, would go to Uptown Waterloo

[urbandreamer]

My neighbourhood "core" is the Junction (Dundas and Keele St area, Toronto.) About the same population/size as Uptown. Not a chain in sight, other than Domino's Pizza and a new Subway that's opening soon--both boring places with blah "food." Lots of trendy stylish eateries and boutiques opening all the time though.... Close by--as close as the University strip and King North/Conestoga Mall is to Uptown--is crappy big box and chain retail around St Clair and Keele. Both exist yet the Junction 'hood is thriving, with similar pedestrian flows (and car usage) as Uptown.

What's wrong with Uptown?

[uptownfoodcritic]

My neighbourhood "core" is the Junction (Dundas and Keele St area, Toronto.) About the same population/size as Uptown. Not a chain in sight, other than Domino's Pizza and a new Subway that's opening soon--both boring places with blah "food." Lots of trendy stylish eateries and boutiques opening all the time though.... Close by--as close as the University strip and King North/Conestoga Mall is to Uptown--is crappy big box and chain retail around St Clair and Keele. Both exist yet the Junction 'hood is thriving, with similar pedestrian flows (and car usage) as Uptown.

What's wrong with Uptown?

Exactly. Keep the crappy chain restaurants like the Keg, Milestones, Moxies on the fringe. Uptown should be a unique experience not generic. It is why Uptown has thrived and survived over the years.

[WatDot]

Exactly. Keep the crappy chain restaurants like the Keg, Milestones, Moxies on the fringe. Uptown should be a unique experience not generic. It is why Uptown has thrived and survived over the years.

No one is saying make uptown all chains as it should be noticeably unique from the suburbs, but a successful core in Canada usually incorporates the three you mention to some degree. They appeal to younger adults and are affordable to most. Moxies design/decor kills anything currently uptown with maybe the exception of Bauer Kitchen, which to me is a chain anyway.

Janet Lynn's is the only restaurant Uptown that proves to be anything of the quality I expect with "unique". However, their decor and marketing is lame. Lacks excitement and totally misses the mark with the younger generation. A healthy mix of businesses is what will be Uptown's continued success.

This is still Waterloo, you can't compare the Uptown to a "neighbourhood" of a major center. There simply isn't the population to support strictly upscale/trendy boutiques. The odd trendy, affordable, chain is an appropriate transition at this point.

[metropolis]

Janet Lynn's is the only restaurant Uptown that proves to be anything of the quality I expect with "unique". However, their decor and marketing is lame. Lacks excitement and totally misses the mark with the younger generation.

If you want youthful and noteworthy Uptown it exists in the form of Nick and Nat's Uptown 21 next to the CIBC on King St. This and businesses like it is what makes Uptown Uptown. A balanced mix would not detract from this though.

[jay]

I live in Uptown and Moxies would not hurt it at all. Other than some pubs there is few places to eat that are not "high end". I like to eat at the fine dining places a lot, but at the end of the day every time I go out I don't want to drop 100+ on a meal and drinks. Not to mention when "some" people visit/drive though they like to eat at places they recognize. With the proposed patio on the square this could be a hit.

Point is, in my opinion, this is a lost to Uptown if they backed out.

[Spokes]

One thing I'd love to see with the new section, is something similar (but taller) built on the Caroline st side and then have a little pedestrian only pathway leading from King to Caroline st.

I'd take the path between Scotiabank and Starbucks and continue it straight to Caroline.

[WatDot]

If you want youthful and noteworthy Uptown it exists in the form of Nick and Nat's Uptown 21 next to the CIBC on King St. This and businesses like it is what makes Uptown Uptown. A balanced mix would not detract from this though.

Nick and Nat's Uptown 21 is a good example too. Forgot about that one. Thanks.
I like Symposium, Coffee Culture, Starbucks as coffee shops Uptown as well. And hey, they are chains and fit in wonderfully with the Uptown culture. It's all how the businesses are designed and interact with the local environment/culture.

[WatDot]

I live in Uptown and Moxies would not hurt it at all. Other than some pubs there is few places to eat that are not "high end". I like to eat at the fine dining places a lot, but at the end of the day every time I go out I don't want to drop 100+ on a meal and drinks. Not to mention when "some" people visit/drive though they like to eat at places they recognize. With the proposed patio on the square this could be a hit.

Point is, in my opinion, this is a lost to Uptown if they backed out.

Agreed. I am still under the opinion it is going to happen until First Gulf changes their documents and/or something else is built in the location.

[Spokes]

Agreed. I am still under the opinion it is going to happen until First Gulf changes their documents and/or something else is built in the location.

Im inclined to think the same way.

[WatDot]

Well Spokes I emailed Moxie's corporate office. They responded with "we are looking into real estate but we do not have a deal settled for a new location, yet". There's several different ways you can take that, but it still leaves optimism IMO.

[Spokes]

Well Spokes I emailed Moxie's corporate office. They responded with "we are looking into real estate but we do not have a deal settled for a new location, yet". There's several different ways you can take that, but it still leaves optimism IMO.

Yup, I feel like if it were dead they'd say it wasn't happening.

[uptownfoodcritic]

Nick and Nat's Uptown 21 is a good example too. Forgot about that one. Thanks.
I like Symposium, Coffee Culture, Starbucks as coffee shops Uptown as well. And hey, they are chains and fit in wonderfully with the Uptown culture. It's all how the businesses are designed and interact with the local environment/culture.

The three coffee shops you mention are a blight upon the Uptown. Replace them with indie cafes with real coffee and real food and then we are talking.

[IEFBR14]

The three coffee shops you mention are a blight upon the Uptown.
No they're not. The word blight is reserved for Tim's and Country Style. Be thankful that neither of those infest Uptown ;)

[SP!RE]

On their website today, under WHAT'S NEW:

It says that coming soon is a Booster Juice.

[Spokes]

On their website today, under WHAT'S NEW:

It says that coming soon is a Booster Juice.

Nice addition. Should get some traffic, especially if there's any signage outside.

[panamaniac]

The three coffee shops you mention are a blight upon the Uptown. Replace them with indie cafes with real coffee and real food and then we are talking.

In their defence, I had the best raisin bran muffin EVER at Coffee Culture when I was "home" a couple of weeks ago. :RpS_drool: I confess, I can't remember anything about the coffee I had with .....

[WatDot]

Coffee Culture when I was in there had a full range of coffees including fair trade organic coffee, etc. Tasted the same as "Remarkable Bean" an independent coffee shop on Queen Street in the beaches, Toronto. Only difference is the Coffee Culture Uptown Waterloo was a lot cleaner and had more comfortable seating with a fully renovated building which improved the immediate building and the community. Some "critics" are never happy. ;)

[waterloo_local]

On Moxies: I reaffirm that deal won't happen. Just remember my quote for when something else goes in there!


Any idea where the Booster Juice will be located? I suspect next to Thai Sun because all the vacancies in the mall still have "For Lease" signs and I don't see them building a kiosk.

I don't think a Booster Juice will draw much traffic into this site. I was there yesterday and it was a ghost town inside the mall

[UrbanWaterloo]

I have to side with waterloo_local on this. It's unfortunate if Moxie's doesn't open in Waterloo Town Square, but he was accurate in regards to the Cancelled 247 King Street North project so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

[WatDot]

On Moxies: I reaffirm that deal won't happen. Just remember my quote for when something else goes in there!

Not calling you a liar, just going with what's available in the public domain. Plus we want to keep our hopes alive. Crush us when there's something public that destroys our dreams. :RpS_tongue:

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

The three coffee shops you mention are a blight upon the Uptown. Replace them with indie cafes with real coffee and real food and then we are talking.

Not every coffee shop is or should be indie, mom and pop, locally owned, linen table cloth, etc. That's not balanced thinking and not setting a well rounded vision for Uptown at all. These three coffee shops are also not a blight - they create many trips to Uptown just to go to these coffee shops. I am impressed with the diversity in coffee shops Uptown - there is a very good balance of both your independents and chains, and all are relatively successful. In fact, I'd probably say there's more indie coffee shops than chains. Tipping the balance too much either way would be bad, and this includes national chain domination as well.


Any idea where the Booster Juice will be located? I suspect next to Thai Sun because all the vacancies in the mall still have "For Lease" signs and I don't see them building a kiosk.

My guess would be that former "Uptown Crepperie" unit along Willis Way. Booster Juice would fit in there well.

[BuildingScout]

Not calling you a liar, just going with what's available in the public domain. Plus we want to keep our hopes alive. Crush us when there's something public that destroys our dreams. :RpS_tongue:

Never underestimate the insider knowledge that some members of the board bring. It is my understanding that at least one major developer and at least one person relatively high within one of the city administrations read and occasionally post here.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Never underestimate the insider knowledge that some members of the board bring. It is my understanding that at least one major developer and at least one person relatively high within one of the city administrations read and occasionally post here.

Totally unrelated, but I was informed yesterday by an employee of the Region that their IT has blocked Wonderful Waterloo on all Regional computers. :RpS_tongue:

[Urbanomicon]

Totally unrelated, but I was informed yesterday by an employee of the Region that their IT has blocked Wonderful Waterloo on all Regional computers. :RpS_tongue:

Any specific reason?

[van Hemessen]

We know too much :P

[BuildingScout]

Totally unrelated, but I was informed yesterday by an employee of the Region that their IT has blocked Wonderful Waterloo on all Regional computers. :RpS_tongue:

You are kidding right?

[uptownfoodcritic]

As to the blightiness of the 3 aforementioned cafes. I judge them based on their bad coffee and inedible food. Yes, people will drink and eat at them. As people would at a McDonald's if there was one in Uptown. But all three draw money out of the city to corporate HQs rather than into the local economy.

Remove those 3 coffee shops and 6 more interesting indies could open in the core. Uptown should be about a unique experience. Those 3 places offer nothing of value to that equation.

[Spokes]

Any specific reason?

Too much wasted time spent on here ;)

[Spokes]

As to the blightiness of the 3 aforementioned cafes. I judge them based on their bad coffee and inedible food. Yes, people will drink and eat at them. As people would at a McDonald's if there was one in Uptown. But all three draw money out of the city to corporate HQs rather than into the local economy.

Remove those 3 coffee shops and 6 more interesting indies could open in the core. Uptown should be about a unique experience. Those 3 places offer nothing of value to that equation.

But remove the 3 shops and it hurts the core significantly.

I even think, heaven forbid, a McDonalds would add something to the core

[DHLawrence]

Remove those 3 coffee shops and 6 more interesting indies could open in the core. Uptown should be about a unique experience. Those 3 places offer nothing of value to that equation.

"Could open" being key. Who's going to open them? Where? Are there enough customers to support six indie coffee houses in Uptown, even with the new commercial/institutional developments going in? Unless the deals are signed before those coffee shops are removed, all you get are three empty storefronts--equally of no value, I think you'll agree.

[neonjoe]

But remove the 3 shops and it hurts the core significantly.

I even think, heaven forbid, a McDonalds would add something to the core
I worked uptown for 2 years And more recently downtown for a year. I found myself brown bagging more while in Waterloo than in Kitchener, there was a real lack of quick serve in Waterloo where one could quickly grab a lunch and bring it back and eat in under a half hour. You can only eat so much Subway, while in Kitchener there is a hub of relatively quick take out around Market Square, both independents and large chains. But, I can definitely say the long Friday lunches were better in Waterloo, the selection of sit down pubs and restaurants are better.

So I agree, overall diversity of chains and independents is definitely best because then everyone can find what they want no matter what they are looking for.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

But remove the 3 shops and it hurts the core significantly.

I even think, heaven forbid, a McDonalds would add something to the core

I tend to agree with Spokes. A few chains like Booster Juice might help turn Waterloo Town Square around. I was Uptown today, walked right past Subway and on to Vincenzos to get a nice deli sandwich for lunch. If I didn't have as much time on my hands, I probably would have just run into Subway for something quick on my way.

Again, not every business in a neighbourhood can be indie, locally owned. That's too uptopian and unrealistic.

[Spokes]

"Could open" being key. Who's going to open them? Where? Are there enough customers to support six indie coffee houses in Uptown, even with the new commercial/institutional developments going in? Unless the deals are signed before those coffee shops are removed, all you get are three empty storefronts--equally of no value, I think you'll agree.

Don't count on it.

[Spokes]

I worked uptown for 2 years And more recently downtown for a year. I found myself brown bagging more while in Waterloo than in Kitchener, there was a real lack of quick serve in Waterloo where one could quickly grab a lunch and bring it back and eat in under a half hour. You can only eat so much Subway, while in Kitchener there is a hub of relatively quick take out around Market Square, both independents and large chains. But, I can definitely say the long Friday lunches were better in Waterloo, the selection of sit down pubs and restaurants are better.

So I agree, overall diversity of chains and independents is definitely best because then everyone can find what they want no matter what they are looking for.

And you hit something that I think goes untalked about. While the purpose of restaurants and places to buy food isn't to serve workers on their lunch breaks, it is important. If the cores are really committed to bringing jobs, there needs to be places to grab a quick bite, and lots of workers want places they know. They're not going to sit down for a gourmet lunch every day, just not realistic.

[uptownfoodcritic]

And you hit something that I think goes untalked about. While the purpose of restaurants and places to buy food isn't to serve workers on their lunch breaks, it is important. If the cores are really committed to bringing jobs, there needs to be places to grab a quick bite, and lots of workers want places they know. They're not going to sit down for a gourmet lunch every day, just not realistic.

The core has improved over the years by removing chains like A&W and adding lunch places like Seven Shores.

No one is talking about requiring fine dining for every situation. If you want a quick sandwich in Uptown you can go downscale to Subway or Coffee Culture or you can get a lovely panini at the Princess Cafe, Whole-lot-a-gelata or Seven Shores. Or, as mentioned, head over to Vincenzo's. There are 2 bad pizza places to choose from. Ish & Chips does a tolerably quick lunch. The Savoury will serve you a salad and a meat pie in under 5 minutes and you can be out the door in less than 15. If you are desperate you can grab something from the Valu-Mart as well or some street meat by the public square. While some of these choices are garbage, IMO, there are multiple excellent options in Uptown for people who only have 30 minutes for lunch and none of them are chains.

I have no sympathy for unimaginative workers who are unwilling to eat at a place they have never heard of before (especially in this day and age of the internet and resto reviews). Live a little and learn a lot.

Once again, I do not believe the core would even notice the lack of those 3 cafes. People survived before the Starbucks, they would survive after it was gone too. All the spaces are desirable and would be snapped up quickly save the Symposium space and that likely will not be there in the next 5 years anyway.

[Spokes]

Why won't symposium be there?

[uptownfoodcritic]

There are plans for that entire block.

[Spokes]

There are plans for that entire block.

What plans? The properties on the block have different owners.

That's a heritage building it's in.

[uptownfoodcritic]

Heritage designation is for the facade only as far as I have heard. Owners talk, deals get made. It just takes time is all.

[Urbanomicon]

But all three draw money out of the city to corporate HQs rather than into the local economy.

This is completely untrue. Firstly, all restaurants, chain or otherwise, pay property taxes to the city. Secondly, the employees (which live in the region) are paid and spend their money in the region. Thirdly, most chains are franchise owned and operated. Thus, the owner of the restaurant most likely lives in the region. The only money that is paid to a "corporate headquarters" is an operating/license fee.

[WatDot]

Heritage designation is for the facade only as far as I have heard. Owners talk, deals get made. It just takes time is all.

I will back this up. City of Waterloo staff have told me the designation is for the facade only of the Waterloo Hotel (which is crap, as it should be the entire building IMO). I spoke with the owner of Chainsaw who is leasing the building. The owner of that building was to sign the deal just recently to sell the land to the current owner of the Waterloo Hotel. This Waterloo Hotel owner would then own the entire block. City staff expect to see a redevelopment plan in the near future.

BUT don't get all excited about this. The current Waterloo Hotel owner drove up the rent pushing many of the independent stores and restaurants out. In fact, all of just one out of the Uptown. The price of rent Uptown is making the unrealistic dream that it will be only populated by mom & pop independents even more of an absurd fantasy. IMO it's time to ensure that all and any business embrace the local area and its direction.. parking secondary, patios/lounging encouraged, mixed usage/zoning, etc.

That being said, I hope we see more of the resto-lounges, multicultural restaurants with the attention to detail and design that you find in major centres. Realistically though they will be mixed in with "urban" chains.

[uptownfoodcritic]

This is completely untrue. Firstly, all restaurants, chain or otherwise, pay property taxes to the city. Secondly, the employees (which live in the region) are paid and spend their money in the region. Thirdly, most chains are franchise owned and operated. Thus, the owner of the restaurant most likely lives in the region. The only money that is paid to a "corporate headquarters" is an operating/license fee.

Did I say that all of the money leaves the local economy? Compared to a locally run businesses these chains draw money out of the local economy. If you have any understanding of how franchised chains work you would understand that local product is generally not the source material for the food/coffee served there.

[Urbanomicon]

Did I say that all of the money leaves the local economy? Compared to a locally run businesses these chains draw money out of the local economy. If you have any understanding of how franchised chains work you would understand that local product is generally not the source material for the food/coffee served there.

I agree, local product is generally not served in franchise restaurants. However, I would also argue that it is not necessarily served in locally owned restaurants either. Good business practice is to reduce operating costs (local business or franchise). If they are able to get imported food for cheaper than they can get the same food locally, then that is what they will choose. Vice versa if they have a cheaper local source. It only makes good business sense.

[waterloo_local]

Agreed. I like Vincenzos and they do have a lot of local stuff, but their deli meats, virtually none are from K-W. The meat may have a more local distributor but the turkey was kept in another city / town.

I also don't know of any local coffee companies that somehow get locally grown coffee or locally grown tea. If you come across one, let us know, but I won't hold my "txt" ;)

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

To be all honest, a lot of the local restauranteurs Uptown - especially the small ones, do not have a large distribution channel and buy much of their staple food from the Wholesale Club at Weber and King.

[uptownfoodcritic]

Agreed. I like Vincenzos and they do have a lot of local stuff, but their deli meats, virtually none are from K-W. The meat may have a more local distributor but the turkey was kept in another city / town.

I also don't know of any local coffee companies that somehow get locally grown coffee or locally grown tea. If you come across one, let us know, but I won't hold my "txt" ;)

There are local roasters, local importers which brings things one degree closer.

The issue is that most franchises/chains dictate where product is bought and that is generally through a head office. The option for local purchasing is removed from the equation. Indie cafes can get their bread from local bakers, coffee from local importers, produce from local farmers/wholesalers, etc. All of those steps increase the amount of money that is kept in the local economy.

[uptownfoodcritic]

More to the point:

Profits at a Starbucks are heading to head office. Profits at an indie cafe are heading to the owner's bank account. Assuming the indie cafe owner lives in Waterloo region, which scenario keeps more money local?

[van Hemessen]

There are local roasters, local importers which brings things one degree closer.

The issue is that most franchises/chains dictate where product is bought and that is generally through a head office. The option for local purchasing is removed from the equation. Indie cafes can get their bread from local bakers, coffee from local importers, produce from local farmers/wholesalers, etc. All of those steps increase the amount of money that is kept in the local economy.

You'd probably be surprised how many chains/franchises, including places like McDonald's, get their food from local producers. Having said that, I agree that "indie" cafes are more desirable for the core, but I think we have a good balance.

What we LACK is a good indie pub with a wide selection of imported and local brews.

[Razzie]

Just walked past the old Scotiabank. There are "For Lease" signs in the window. Looks like no Moxie's for uptown.

[waterloo_local]

Not a shocker. There is a "For Lease" on every single vacancy inside the mall. Does not look encouraging if every empty unit is For Lease. Means there aren't any firm deals.

[waterloo_local]

Looks like Booster Juice is going in next to Thai Sun. Being at the back of this strip, I think it's probably not the best spot, but we'll see how it goes for them.

[Spokes]

Hmm so I wonder what happens with BOTH King and University locations.

[Section ThirtyOne]

Looks like Booster Juice is going in next to Thai Sun. Being at the back of this strip, I think it's probably not the best spot, but we'll see how it goes for them.

Looking forward to it. Booster Juice is a guilty pleasure of mine... even worse now that they're across the street! :D

[waterloo_local]

Hmm so I wonder what happens with BOTH King and University locations.

Check the 247 king street forum, the other store hasn't been open before and isn't going to. They're staying right where they are at.

[bcwessel]

Yep. Still looks like a shopping mall. Luckily it's not taking up one of the most important lots in all of Uptown or anything...

[UrbanWaterloo]

Olivier (Unit 55) - October 9, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Retail/Uptown%20Waterloo/Waterloo%20Town%20Square%20-%20October%209%2C%202010%20Resized.JPG

[urbangeographer]

Walked by WTS this morning. Saw that the space beside David Boyes is empty and there is paper up on the window. Checked out the WTS website today and saw that a place called Zoup is coming soon. Not sure if it is to this partucular space. Looked it up online and found a Soup resturaunt. Never heard of it. Apparantly the "Soup Nazi" eats there........ On another note, anyone heard any news on the old Scotia Bank space.

[BuildingScout]

Olivier (Unit 55) - October 9, 2010


The Olivier guys were on Dragon's Den last week. One question the dragons had is "why do they need us? they have excellent products and growing sales". Their expansion to Waterloo suggests that the dragons might have been right. They could do it finance their expansion on their own. A welcome new business to Waterloo.

[Loay]

Hi everybody,

Thanks alot for these useful info, please I am seeking any advices or comments of buying Sangsters suplemnet store located in Waterloo Town Square, the store located infront of Valu-Mart exactly in 31B, with a 810 SF

Have a good day

[Trogdor]

Hi everybody,

Thanks alot for these useful info, please I am seeking any advices or comments of buying Sangsters suplemnet store located in Waterloo Town Square, the store located infront of Valu-Mart exactly in 31B, with a 810 SF

Have a good day
Are you looking for store ideas or just comments on the location? My first thought on the latter is that you will get a lot of traffic coming to Cora's and Valu-Mart so it's a pretty good location as far as WTS goes. If you are looking for store ideas, I would really avoid opening some sort of older woman's clothes store. People have had enough of that and they don't work. Oddly enough, I think this would be a cool location for a technology store such as EB Games. The market for kid and teen oriented stores is really under-served Uptown and I think it could be an opportunity. Also, I could see something oriented to the new market of students and faculty who will soon be very close at hand at the Balsillie School.

[BuildingScout]

Oddly enough, I think this would be a cool location for a technology store such as EB Games. The market for kid and teen oriented stores is really under-served Uptown and I think it could be an opportunity. Also, I could see something oriented to the new market of students and faculty who will soon be very close at hand at the Balsillie School.

Try to avoid opening yet another trinket/clothing store. Have a unique proposition that attracts the local citizenry. Perimeter, Balsillie, people who go to uptown Waterloo. Make sure your merchandise is unique. If you open yet another video games store why would they go there instead of Future Shop?

pay attention to foot traffic. what is the profile of the cora/value mart shopper? old? young? poor? rich? those will be your bread and butter at least until you become well known.

[Loay]

Hi, Thanks for your comment, Sangster's store is already established store in that location, its Health supplement store, selling Vitamins, Herbal remedies, Protein products .... etc,,

Till now I dont know exactly why owner intending to sell it? I got approached from their head quarter in saskatchewan
What do you think?

[uptownfoodcritic]

I would avoid buying it like the plague.

The rent and traffic in the WTS do not mesh and First Gulf has a terrible rep as a landlord.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Last time I was in Waterloo Square (beginning of December), Sangster's was closed and it looked like they were relocating the store somewhere else. Does anyone know anything more about this?

[Loay]

Its under construction and major renovation, as stated by Darryl Sangster (CEO) in Saskatchewan, they will re open in the mid of January, really I don’t know how you could think in renovation in such time of the year, it doesn’t make any sense, unless they don’t care about holidays occasions!!

[UrbanWaterloo]

New Benches - December 30, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Retail/Uptown%20Waterloo/The%20Shops%20At%20Waterloo%20Town%20Square%20-%20New%20Benches%20-%20December%2030,%202010%20Resized.JPG

[myfaceisonfire]

I'm starting to wonder why First Gulf is still putting so much money into the mall. I guess it is good that they do though :)

[Urban_Enthusiast86]

I'm starting to wonder why First Gulf is still putting so much money into the mall. I guess it is good that they do though :)

Really? I disagree with that. I wish they'd let the mall die a slow death, and instead put their money into the redevelopment of the mall. It could become a massive mixed-use development (highrise offices and condos) with base retail that is similar in format to the development just south of Willis Way.

Instead of the Caroline streetscape consisting of blank walls and loading docks, a real uptown street can emerge, allowing uptown to better connect to the Balsillie campus and Barrelyards development. The public square would have a much-improved backdrop. And given the possibility of an LRT station right there, it only seems appropriate that density should increase dramatically at that location.

[Spokes]

While I agree with you that it would be great as a mixed use project and would add a ton to Uptown, it's not happening any time soon. It'd be stupid for First Gulf to do that. They've already sunk a boat load of money into this project, demoing it now would be foolish. Also, it makes sense for them to put money into the mall, they want to make it as nice as possible to draw new/good tenants and to try to get as good of a return on investment as possible.

[Urbanomicon]

New Benches - December 30, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Retail/Uptown%20Waterloo/The%20Shops%20At%20Waterloo%20Town%20Square%20-%20New%20Benches%20-%20December%2030,%202010%20Resized.JPG

Those look to be just about the most uncomfortable benches they could have placed there. You can't even sit on the sides of them, it is too narrow.

[DHLawrence]

They're probably only intended to be used at the end. Considering how few people actually sit on mall benches, they probably don't need to be any larger.

[BuildingScout]

They've already sunk a boat load of money into this project, demolishing it now would be foolish. Also, it makes sense for them to put money into the mall, they want to make it as nice as possible to draw new/good tenants and to try to get as good of a return on investment as possible.

They should just gradually convert the back of Caroline into an extension of the street facing Willis Way shops. With the Barrel Yards, CIGI and the extension to the Perimeter Institute there will be increased demand from that part of town.

Does First Gulf own the Duke of Wellington building? Now there is one facility which screams for being redone.

[Spokes]

They should just gradually convert the back of Caroline into an extension of the street facing Willis Way shops. With the Barrel Yards, CIGI and the extension to the Perimeter Institute there will be increased demand from that part of town.

Does First Gulf own the Duke of Wellington building? Now there is one facility which screams for being redone.

My understanding is that they don't, but that's just from the above image not including it, so I could be wrong. You're right though, that whole section from Erb and Caroline up Erb to King has a ton of potential.

[jay]

I'm still pissed Moxies backed out of the old ScotiaBank space..

I'm glad they are sinking money into the mall because they need to try to get better tenants. A major restaurant/bar would help the mall a lot.

[Rowe]

They need to get rid of the 'mall' aspect of this retail development... and somehow make it more urban. Create some sort of unique shopping experience.

[Spokes]

They need to get rid of the 'mall' aspect of this retail development... and somehow make it more urban. Create some sort of unique shopping experience.

You're right...but how? Without tearing the whole thing down that is.

[DHLawrence]

What about ripping the roof off a la Shops at Don Mills? It will open it up for piecemeal redevelopment at least.

[benjaminbach]

My understanding is that they [First Gulf] don't [own the Duke of Wellington building], but that's just from the above image not including it, so I could be wrong. You're right though, that whole section from Erb and Caroline up Erb to King has a ton of potential.

You're right, First Gulf doesn't own it.

The Duke of Wellington building does not own the parking around it - the City owns the whole lot - so there isn't excess land in addition to the building to redevelop (the building Angie's is in is the same situation).

[Spokes]

You're right, First Gulf doesn't own it.

The Duke of Wellington building does not own the parking around it - the City owns the whole lot - so there isn't excess land in addition to the building to redevelop (the building Angie's is in is the same situation).

The first gulf property ends at the train tracks right? With the exception of the King st fronting stuff? (TD, the Running Room, etc)

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Ad today in the Waterloo Chronicle says that the Gizmos location in Waterloo Town Square will be closing February 5.

[Spokes]

Ad today in the Waterloo Chronicle says that the Gizmos location in Waterloo Town Square will be closing February 5.

Man, that's a shame, another casualty. Consolidating at their Conestoga location maybe?