247 King Street North | 80 m | 25 fl | Tenant Relocaton

[UrbanWaterloo]

247 King St N, Waterloo
Developer: Tanem Developments

25,000 sq ft of ground floor retail | 25,000 sq ft of office space
12,000 sq ft garden on top of office space/podium | 260 spot - two level underground parking garage

477

[Spokes]

http://media.therecord.topscms.com/images/63/70/776dcc494bd2b5f30754cecd0852.jpeg
http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/415977

25-storey luxury condo planned for King and University in Waterloo
September 16, 2008 | Liz Monteiro, Record staff | http://news.therecord.com/article/415571 (http://news.therecord.com/article/415571)

WATERLOO — A 25-storey luxury condominium tower catering to people who want an urban lifestyle could be going up at King Street North and University Avenue in Waterloo.

The City of Waterloo has received an application for a 175-unit condo proposal from Waterloo developer Tanem Developments.

The tower would be located at 247 and 253 King Street N., across the street from Wilfrid Laurier University.

“I really think this corner will be a landmark corner,” said Mike Weber, vice-president of Tanem at 255 King St. N. “It will sell itself.”

But Weber said in a later interview that the condos will be rental units. He wouldn’t say how much they will rent for or cost.

Cameron Rapp, general manager of development services for the city, said the high-density development will likely attract singles and young couples who work in the nearby high-tech sector and local insurance companies.

“This type of development is what we are looking for for the future,’’ Rapp said. “Not everyone wants to live in a single-detached house.”

The project is not targeted at students, he said, but towards people who want to live in an urban area near city amenities, Rapp said.

The land at King and University now has a plaza with a variety of retail enterprises, including a Starbucks coffee shop, a pizza outlet and a Rogers outlet.

Tanem, which owns the land, plans to tear down the current buildings, Rapp said.

Weber said some of the businesses now on the land will move into retail space in the new development or nearby. They will be temporarily relocated during construction, he said.

The developer plans about 20,000 square feet of retail space and another 25,000 square-feet of office space at the base of the building.

Plans for the development are preliminary, and tenants for the office and retail space have not yet been confirmed.

The residential units, ranging from 700 square feet to 1,400 square feet, will be mostly two bedrooms, but some will have one bedroom.

The development will also have two underground parking decks with 260 spots as well as room for 20 vehicles above ground.

A 12,000-square-foot garden and patio is planned for the roof of the commerical and retail space.
The developer is also asking for the city’s approval to increase density on the property from 250 units per hectare to 330 units per hectare.

The development will come before council Sept. 22.


Major condo project coming to King
By Greg MacDonald | September 24, 2008 | http://www.waterloochronicle.ca/news/article/144428

A 25-storey condominium development is slated for the corner of King Street and University Avenue.

The building will be the largest in the immediate area and will house 175 apartment units that will be rented and later sold as condos.

The base of the structure will feature retail and office space, including some of the stores that are currently in the strip mall on that corner.

"This is going to rejuvenate a site that we believe needs it,"said Bernie Hermsen, a consultant with MHBC planning.

Apartment units will take up floors four to 25, while the first floor will include retail space.

The apartments offered will be one bedroom, two bedroom and two bedroom with a den, Hermsen said.

City council still has to approve the developer's request, which includes increasing the maximum height of the structure from 75 metres to 80.

The extra height will allow for commercial space fronting on to both King and University on the first floor.

The second floor is slated for office use, while part of the second floor roof will be made into green space for residents.

The developer is also looking to increase the density on the 1.31-acre site from 250 units per hectare to 330 units per hectare.

Staff is currently looking at various studies covering topics such as traffic, environmental and shadows to determine the impact the development will have on the neighbourhood.

The developer is hoping to target the units at visiting professors at the nearby universities, as well as high-tech workers.

That's the type of development the city is looking for to help transform the area from a purely student neighbourhood.

"I'm left breathless," said Coun. Mark Whaley after watching an animation of the towers.

"Seeing these towers go up will be great."

Coun. Karen Scian was also taken aback by the structure.

"It's shocking to see the size of the project compared to the rest of the neighbourhood," she said.

Scian wondered if the developer, along with the first-floor business and nearby business on King Street, could work together to create a community improvement plan to help transform the area from its current state.

Mayor Brenda Halloran also voiced her support for the development and the overall direction that the corner is moving towards.

"This is a very exciting change for that area," she said.

[Spokes]

From Planning & Public Works Meeting Agenda for Region on March 31, 2009


"RECOMMENDATION:
THAT the Region of Waterloo support the development application as proposed on the site located at 247 and 253 King Street North in the City of Waterloo and request that the developer provide a Transportation Demand Management Plan to indicate how single occupant vehicle trips will be reduced from this site...

An office, specialty retail and residential development is proposed at the northwest corner of King Street and University in the City of Waterloo. This type of development is consistent with the reurbanization objectives of the Regional Official Plan and Provincial Places to Grow legislation. The traditional method of undertaking transportation impact analysis indicates that as a result of the development, delays to traffic will increase in the peak hours if the intersection is not widened. However, the construction of additional lanes at the King/University intersection will increase delays and crossing times for pedestrians and negatively affect transit operations. The development reflects the transportation challenges associated with reurbanization, but it is the type of mixed use and density that will support transit and encourage pedestrian trips within the Central Transportation Corridor.

Staff are therefore recommending that the Region support this development and require the developer to complete a Transportation Demand Management(TDM) Plan to propose methods to further reduce single occupant automobile trips from the site. Through the Regional Transportation Master Plan, staff will be considering alternative methods of balancing the objectives of the Places to Grow legislation and the new Regional Official Plan with the mobility needs of the community. These methods may include preparation of Transportation Demand Management Plans by developers and/or extending analysis of the design period beyond just the peak hour. In the interim, It is proposed that the merits of preparing a Transportation Demand Management Plan for new development applications be considered on an individual basis."

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3097/ppw033109.jpg

http://chd.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/Region.nsf/8ef02c0fded0c82a85256e590071a3ce/790B281C9D0A0AC585257586005563E5/$file/P-09-031.pdf?openelement

[Spokes]

Councillor questions density bonuses

By Greg MacDonald, Chronicle Staff
Apr 08, 2009

City council has officially approved a new 25- storey condo development at the corner of King and University Avenue.

But the decision came with an odd stipulation.

As part of the approval process, the developer has agreed to fork over a $165,000 donation to the new civic square in uptown Waterloo.

Because the developer was looking to increase densities, a quirk in the Planning Act allowed the city’s development department to seek some compensation that would improve the city.

The money had to go towards a capital project that has a line in the city’s capital budget, said Danielle Ingram, a development planner with the city.

The city can only seek a donation — called “density bonusing” like this in very specific circumstances, she added.

While the money is welcome and was obtained through a legal process, Coun. Mark Whaley said he was dubious about density bonusing.

“Imagine how it might look to some that (the developer) came requiring a density increase . . . and in order to get that, there’s a $165,000 gift to the city,” he said. “I’m certain of the nobility of everyone involved, but I’m a little concerned about the first time we enter density bonuses.”

Whaley said this was the first time he’d ever heard of the process and believes that council needs to formulate a policy around it to avoid abuse — real or perceived.

“I’m hopeful in short order, our development services department will come forward with some density bonusing guidelines,” he said. “We leave ourselves open for criticism in the future without having some really clear guidelines.”

As for the development, the building will be the largest in the immediate area and will house 175 units.

The base of the structure will feature retail and office space, including some of the stores that are currently in the strip mall on the corner.

“I think this development reflects the kind we were looking for when we made changes to the height and density (policy),” said Coun. Ian McLean. “These are the types of development we can support.”

http://www.waterloochronicle.ca/news/article/169785 (http://www.waterloochronicle.ca/news/article/169785)


Urban living should avoid increases in traffic

May 02, 2009
Jeff Outhit

Politicians want to put more homes and jobs into urban neighbourhoods, to keep cities from spilling into the countryside. But people bring cars with them. This can fill old streets with new traffic and cause new problems.

For example, consider King Street and University Avenue in Waterloo, the busy crossroad at the corner of Wilfrid Laurier University.

A developer plans a highrise on the northwest corner, with 175 condominiums plus offices and retail space. Politicians want the jobs and homes. They figure the tower will promote an urban lifestyle where people walk more, drive less.

However, the redevelopment risks overwhelming an intersection that's already struggling.

Drivers currently face rush-hour delays at King and University. It's also one of the busiest and trickiest crossings for pedestrians, at the edge of campus.

The intersection sees more than twice the collisions it should, based on the amount of traffic.

Adding traffic generated by a highrise and other growth will extend intersection delays well beyond two minutes, a study suggests.

Adding lanes would add space for cars, but the intersection is already four lanes wide. Expanding it would create a sea of asphalt no pedestrian would want to cross. Widening would also consume bus bays, disrupting transit.

This would make the corner so unpleasant, it would undermine what the highrise is meant to achieve. So planners have ruled out adding lanes.

Instead, they will work with the developer to persuade residents and tenants to come to the building without bringing so many cars.

There's potential to do this. Unlike suburban areas where proposed highrises have raised traffic fears, this site is well served by transit and is in a walkable area. It may be near a proposed rapid transit station, intended to help draw people from their cars.

The goal is to trim the traffic such a building would normally generate by 35 per cent.

Possible ways to do this include: Discounting bus passes for residents and office tenants, providing superior bicycle parking, promoting car-sharing, selling parking spaces separate from condominiums, decreasing city parking requirements, designing a pedestrian-friendly building, integrating bus stops, and providing showers for office and retail tenants who cycle or run to work.

Let's hope the effort works here, in part so it can be done elsewhere. Because if putting jobs and homes in urban areas snarls traffic badly, public support would fade fast.

Jeff Outhit can be reached at 519-895-5642 and jouthit@therecord.com

http://news.therecord.com/article/530552 (http://news.therecord.com/article/530552)

[RangersFan]

Does anyone know what the current status of this project is? I thought we would have seen some work at the 7-11 corner by now, in an effort to move Pizza Pizza and Starbucks. I did notice today however that the Rogers at the 247 King st plaza has moved out.

[UrbanWaterloo]

City of Waterloo: FINANCE & STRATEGIC PLANNING MEETING
AGENDA: http://www.waterloo.ca/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/CS_CLERKS_Minutes_2010/20100208_Agenda_Special_Council_Meeting.pdf
Monday, February 8, 2010
WILL BEGIN AT 3:00 P.M.

2.ENACTMENT OF BY-LAWS
First, Second, Third and Final Reading
Recommendation:
“That the By-laws listed on the February 8, 2010 Council Agenda as Numbers 4 a), b), c) and d) be read a first, second and third time and finally passed, and that the Mayor and Clerk be authorized to sign them accordingly and number them sequentially commencing with By-law Number 2010-017.”

b) By-law to confirm the widening of the Public Lane shown on Plan 722, a public highway in the City of Waterloo (Condition of Committee of Adjustment to facilitate Tanem Developments project at 247-253 King Street North)

[Spokes]

Which public lane is that in reference to? What does that mean for this project?

[UrbanWaterloo]

A quick search of the City of Waterloo's website revealed no "Plan 722". I imagine this is mostly procedural though and likely passed easily. Hopefully this is one of the last pieces of "red tape" holding up this project and construction can proceed quickly this spring.

[uptownfoodcritic]

I know they had said the Starbucks was going to move across the street to where the matress place was before. That was a while ago though so I'm not sure what the status is now.

[jay]

You would think Starbucks and Pizza Pizza (who I think are the only long term tenants) would want to have there new locations up and running before they demo the building. It seems Booster Juice is moving into the retail section of the Office building behind the complex.

I think once we see the Starbucks being constructed across the street we will know that things are starting to move forward.

[Spokes]

Ya, it's just really weird that this has taken SO long to happen

[UrbanWaterloo]

I think once we see the Starbucks being constructed across the street we will know that things are starting to move forward.

Agreed.

[RangersFan]

Does anyone know if the two by-law amendments for this project have been passed? The one for increasing the maximum height and the one for changing the NE corner's land use designation.

[UrbanWaterloo]

March 5, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-1a.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-2.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-4c.jpg

Still Open: Pizza Pizza
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-5.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-6a.jpg

Still Open: Booster Juice
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-6b.jpg

Still Open: Runners' Choice
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-7.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-8.jpg

Still Open: Starbucks
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-9.jpg


http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-10d.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-11c.jpg

Temporary Pizza Pizza & Starbucks Location
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-12a.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-12b.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-12c.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-16.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-13a.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-14.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-18a.jpg

Someone missing a ball?
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-18b.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March52010-15a.jpg

[RangersFan]

Does it look like anything has been done inside the temporary locations at this time? From the pictures it does not look like it. On a positive note its a good sign that Booster Juice has a moving sign up as well. It's just too bad it says in the coming months rather than very soon haha, I really want to see this one get built.


And as always awesome pictures UrbanWaterloo

[Spokes]

Sooooo nothing happening any time soon haha. It's going to happen, just a shame it's taking so long.

I wonder if there's anything in the Pizza Pizza or Starbucks lease dictating a certain timeline before the move or soemthing?

Thanks for the great pictures!

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

On a positive note its a good sign that Booster Juice has a moving sign up as well

That sign has been there for a few months now.

[Spokes]

That sign has been there for a few months now.

And their new location has seemed set up for that long too, wonder why they dont just get the move over with

[metropolis]

And their new location has seemed set up for that long too, wonder why they dont just get the move over with

I frequent this Booster Juice and have asked a # of employees when they expect to move. All have now said its not til next year likely.

[Spokes]

I frequent this Booster Juice and have asked a # of employees when they expect to move. All have now said its not til next year likely.

See that one doesn't make sense to me. It looks like their new location is all done, why not get the move out of the way?

[RangersFan]

That would be very unfortunate, if this delay were true. But judging from the progress on the Pizza Pizza and Starbucks relocations it doesn't seem unlikely.

[RangersFan]

While browsing the internet I came across this "The Cord" article (http://hotink.theorem.ca/system/cord/issues/000/004/036/WEBfinal_screen_quality.pdf?1257325023) from Nov 2009 with a piece regarding this development.
sorry about the formatting [Update: Formatted by UrbanWaterloo]

Starbucks and Pizza Pizza moving
Linda Givetash, theCord - November 4, 2009 2:09 AM
http://www.thecord.ca/articles/22257

http://hotink.theorem.ca/system/cord/images/000/007/753/King_Street_Condo-Web-Sheena_Archie_large.jpg?1257324626

Although some businesses have appeared to begin moving out of the plaza at the corner of King Street and University Avenue across from Wilfrid Laurier University, a definite timeline for construction on the site has not been confirmed.
The corner is planned to house a new 25-storey luxury condominium built by Tanem Developments Ltd. The new building will hold 175 units, two underground parking decks and 20,000 square feet of street level office and retail space.
Tanem Developments confirmed that both Starbucks and Pizza Pizza will be relocated to 12 University Avenue East next to 7-11.
However, in regards to when the move will occur, Nelson Kraus, owner of Tanem stated, “Any guess, get it on a crystal ball.”
Employees at both establishments also expressed uncertainties for when a move would occur, as contracts between the corporations and developers are still being finalized.
Kraus did remain optimistic on moving forward with the project, explaining, “Basically I hope that in the spring time we start on the [new] building.”
Rogers Wireless has already moved earlier this fall to 255 King St. North following the permanent closure of MacDonell’s in June.
Booster Juice and Runner’s Choice will be joining Rogers Wireless in the neighbouring plaza.
Krista Zazulak, an employee of Booster Juice, told The Cord that their move is expected to occur in December, although she was unsure of the exact date.
“We’d like to get through Christmas,” said Geoff Todd, owner of Runner’s Choice, expressing their decision to move at a later date. “January is quieter and easier to move in.”
Construction for the condominium is anticipated to take between two and two-and-a-half years to complete, following the relocation of all current businesses.

[RangersFan]

While searching for information on 323 King st I came across this "1 University Ave W" by my count 23 stories ( the add here (http://emcad.ca/residential)says 20), was this an original proposal by Tanem?http://emcad.ca/sites/default/files/image/Project%20Photos/University%20Ave%20Student%20Bldg.jpeg

[Spokes]

Hmm never seen that one before. It's close to the original drawing, I wonder if its a revised one or one that didn't make the cut.

Good find though!

[RangersFan]

Yeah I really like the look of this project, I really want to see it anchoring the Waterloo skyline. I also like that in this bigger picture that they included Pizza Pizza and Starbucks.

[urbandreamer]

I'd like to see the neighbouring office building pulled to the sidewalk edge--get rid of the parking lot. I was always puzzled seeing it there--new building, old-fashioned suburban planning. Stupid.

[jay]

The parking should have been put at the back of the building at least.

[Spokes]

The one on King? Owned by the same developer? Ya it should be right up against King st, and not raised up 4 ft. It's a good looking building with nice ground floor retail. Too bad they couldn't just move it. Maybe we'll start doing things right from now on :)

[UrbanWaterloo]

Runners choice has moved, images tonight.

[Spokes]

Runners choice has moved, images tonight.

Are they moving across the street too? I thought it was just Starbucks and Pizza Pizza

[UrbanWaterloo]

Nope, they moved over to 255 King Street North (beside the "opening soon" Booster Juice).

247 King Street North - March 29, 2010

Runners' Choice Former Location
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March292010-1d.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March292010-1b.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March292010-1c.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-March292010-1a.jpg


255 King Street North - March 29, 2010

Not the most appealing water. :eek:
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/255KingStreetNorth-March292010-10.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/255KingStreetNorth-March292010-1.jpg

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http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/255KingStreetNorth-March292010-8.jpg

Runners' Choice Now Open in their New Location
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/255KingStreetNorth-March292010-9.jpg

[RangersFan]

Well you would think with the building nearly empty now they would be more apt to start working on the building beside 711 to get the other tenants moved. Saying this just purely from a financial standpoint as it does not make sense to have a strip mall in a prominent location empty for no reason for unnecessary time but I could be wrong.

[jay]

I don't think it's by choice... Probably a lot of legal wrangling going on.

[Spokes]

Good move to put them there. Like has been said, it's not a bad development they have there, just a shame they have to have the parking lot.

Glad they could work out a deal with them to keep them in the same area.

[UrbanWaterloo]

12 University Avenue East - May 12, 2010
The property where Pizza Pizza & Starbucks is supposed to move into is up for sale with no mention of their relocation. :confused:

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/12UniversityAvenueEast-May122010-1.jpg


12 University Avenue East, Waterloo
For Sale: Prime, high profile building at the corner of King Street and University Avenue.
http://www.jjb.com/Client/JJB/JJBNA%20Web%20Listing%20db.nsf/be1017669bea48fb852570d9000fe8f4/33822b54db6fe94e8525771f006b623a!OpenDocument
PDF: http://www.jjb.com/Client/JJB/JJBNA%20Web%20Listing%20db.nsf/be1017669bea48fb852570d9000fe8f4/33822b54db6fe94e8525771f006b623a/$FILE/university_12.pdf
Detailed Description: Retail
Intersection: King Street North
Zoning: C6-25
Asking Price: $1,095,000.00
Annual Taxes: 12887.90
Tax Year: 2010
Total Area: 3,000 sq. ft.
Availability: Negotiable

[urbandreamer]

I think I know what's going on--the owners of this plaza realiized their property is much more valuable as a residential site. My prediction: Coming soon--before 2012--another 15-25 storey tower or two.:D

[RangersFan]

Yikes, I wonder what happeneds now? Does this development happen at all due to the long term contracts of Starbucks and Pizza Pizza?

[Spokes]

I think I know what's going on--the owners of this plaza realiized their property is much more valuable as a residential site. My prediction: Coming soon--before 2012--another 15-25 storey tower or two.:D

I wouldn't be too surprised. It's such a prime corner for development

[Spokes]

Yikes, I wonder what happeneds now? Does this development happen at all due to the long term contracts of Starbucks and Pizza Pizza?

I think it still happens. They spent the money ripping down the Canada Computers building. They wouldn't just abandon the project.

[WatDot]

I think they are only selling the building... not the land. Weird change in plans.

[RangersFan]

Yeah i know, but what will they do with the current tenants? Or wait the contracts out and build once there complete? Or is there room in the other building they own behind where "Booster Juice" moved?

[Spokes]

Yeah i know, but what will they do with the current tenants? Or wait the contracts out and build once there complete? Or is there room in the other building they own behind where "Booster Juice" moved?

Im not sure if there's room. Off the top of my head, Im thinking there might be one open space.

As for waiting them out, not sure either, I would imagine they probably can't just void their lease without good cause.

I think selling this property is a bit short sighted. If they wait out the contracts they are hurting themselves by not getting started. If they some how voided them, they'd lose the tenants. All to sell that property to another developer. I would have thought that would be the kind of property THEY would want to develop. I hope this isn't a sign of financial trouble.

[WatDot]

Question is, does this same property owner own the 7-11 building/lot? I find it weird that they are selling the building they are now, but maybe the rumoured plan of building another large condo isn't possible because the 7-11 property is unachievable? Just a thought. I guess there's plenty of possibilities why the change in plans, but I don't think it is necessarily a terrible end of project one.

PS - I am sure there is enough space for both Starbucks & Pizza Pizza at the retail space next to the proposed development at 247 King.

[Spokes]

Question is, does this same property owner own the 7-11 building/lot? I find it weird that they are selling the building they are now, but maybe the rumoured plan of building another large condo isn't possible because the 7-11 property is unachievable? Just a thought. I guess there's plenty of possibilities why the change in plans, but I don't think it is necessarily a terrible end of project one.

PS - I am sure there is enough space for both Starbucks & Pizza Pizza at the retail space next to the proposed development at 247 King.

I always assumed the same owner owned that and the empty buildings that are now for sale, but now Im not so sure. If its a different owner, the 7/11 would definitely be a hurdle for any redevelopment. They'd want to have a new home before leaving such a prime location.

[Greg Moore]

The big Asian restaurant in the brown building north of 7-11 looked closed. Most of the windows were papered over yesterday. The only thing that looked open was Fire It Up.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Im not sure if there's room. Off the top of my head, Im thinking there might be one open space.

As for waiting them out, not sure either, I would imagine they probably can't just void their lease without good cause.

I think selling this property is a bit short sighted. If they wait out the contracts they are hurting themselves by not getting started. If they some how voided them, they'd lose the tenants. All to sell that property to another developer. I would have thought that would be the kind of property THEY would want to develop. I hope this isn't a sign of financial trouble.

Good point Spokes. You would think that the former SleepEzz property would be much more valuable once 247 King is built and they should technically wait to sell it off until then. They could easily get double, triple or even 4 times as much - especially if the 7/11 site was coming on the market at that time too.

Does anyone know what is in the old Morty's location behind the RBC? Maybe Starbucks and/or Pizza Pizza will move in there if it is still vacant.

[UrbanWaterloo]

The property is owned by Tanem and something is happening here, though it doesn't really look like a Starbucks or Pizza Pizza.

258 King Street North, Unit 3 - May 13, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/258KingStreetNorthUnit3-May132010-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/258KingStreetNorthUnit3-May132010-2.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/258KingStreetNorthUnit3-May132010-3.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/258KingStreetNorthUnit3-May132010-4.jpg

[RangersFan]

The situation at 247 King St N is certainly taking a twist, I guess we will have to just wait and see unless someone in our community has connections to Tanem and could spill the beans.

[waterloo]

The property is owned by Tanem and something is happening here, though it doesn't really look like a Starbucks or Pizza Pizza.

258 King Street North, Unit 3 - May 13, 2010


It is a Burrito Boyz.

[urbandreamer]

Oh nice.:) Although there's better burritos in Toronto now.

[Spokes]

Good point Spokes. You would think that the former SleepEzz property would be much more valuable once 247 King is built and they should technically wait to sell it off until then. They could easily get double, triple or even 4 times as much - especially if the 7/11 site was coming on the market at that time too.

Does anyone know what is in the old Morty's location behind the RBC? Maybe Starbucks and/or Pizza Pizza will move in there if it is still vacant.

It'd be worth even more for them to develop the property and sell units than to just sell the land. But that takes a lot of capitol. But why not take the profits from 247 and reinvest?

[Spokes]

It is a Burrito Boyz.

Nice addition.

Although down the road I'd like to see this torn down and something between 8 and 15 floors go up there. Maybe closer to 10? I think what they have here now is the epitome of outdated design especially with the parking out front.

[WatDot]

Nice addition.

Although down the road I'd like to see this torn down and something between 8 and 15 floors go up there. Maybe closer to 10? I think what they have here now is the epitome of outdated design especially with the parking out front.

Yeah that building is pretty dated. Will be hard for them to attract high paying tenants in the future without a major change.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Does anyone know what is in the old Morty's location behind the RBC? Maybe Starbucks and/or Pizza Pizza will move in there if it is still vacant.

Looks like RBC has taken over the space.

RBC - 248 King Street North - May 19, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/248KingStreetNorthWaterloo-May19201.jpg

[Spokes]

Havent they been there for a while?

[KLM]

Havent they been there for a while?

yes as far as I know ,they have been there for years.

Wonder will they do something with that corner where RBC is?

Another development? high rise?
I hope!

[IEFBR14]

yes as far as I know ,they have been there for years.
And the Forwell's Variety has been there even longer. I wonder who owns that property.

That corner would also make a great place for WLU to expand. The Laurier Centre for Military Strategic and Disarmament Studies as well as a Kampus Kops detachment are located next door to Forwells. And WLU already occupies a number of other random buildings on that and adjacent blocks east of King St.

[WatDot]

Laurier will never grab that corner section, too expensive now for them. Besides right now they are chasing free land in Brantford and eventually Milton. Within Waterloo you will see them use up the space they have with additions, new buildings, etc. Another large mixed use development (247 King Style) would be great there. Heck give Forwell's a new venue!

[KLM]

Laurier will never grab that corner section, too expensive now for them. Besides right now they are chasing free land in Brantford and eventually Milton. Within Waterloo you will see them use up the space they have with additions, new buildings, etc. Another large mixed use development (247 King Style) would be great there. Heck give Forwell's a new venue!

Thats true.WLU is opening in Milton.

Another large development like 247 King would be great!

Is across Royal Bank some mechanic shop or service buidling type of thing?

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Another large development like 247 King would be great!


That would be amazing, but then you need to start considering whether the intersection of King & University can handle that much more vehicular and pedestrian traffic. It is one of the Region's busiest and most dangerous and something that was definitely discussed by the Region for Tanem's 247.

[Greg Moore]

A bank owning that corner may not be so bad in the long run. They are the ones with all our money to spend on something nice. :)

[Spokes]

Laurier will never grab that corner section, too expensive now for them. Besides right now they are chasing free land in Brantford and eventually Milton. Within Waterloo you will see them use up the space they have with additions, new buildings, etc. Another large mixed use development (247 King Style) would be great there. Heck give Forwell's a new venue!

Yup, I agree, WLU isn't touching that one. They don't even mention it in the master plan. I'd love to see it get developed, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Fingers crossed though.

[Spokes]

Thats true.WLU is opening in Milton.

Another large development like 247 King would be great!

Is across Royal Bank some mechanic shop or service buidling type of thing?

I think so. It'd require a lot of land purchasing along Regina too.

[RangersFan]

Just reading over some Waterloo City Council meetings (http://www.waterloo.ca/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/CS_CLERKS_Minutes_2009/20090406_Minutes_Committee_of_the_Whole_Meeting.do c)regarding this project it does seem to appear the bylaw for the property at 12 University Ave was approved.

FORMAL PUBLIC MEETING

a) DS-08-48 CITY WIDE OFFICIAL PLAN AMENDMENT NO. 73
ZONING CHANGE APPLICATION Z-08-08
TANEM DEVELOPMENTS INC.
247 AND 253 KING STREET NORTH
Prepared By: Danielle Ingram

Having previously declared a pecuniary interest with respect to reports DS-08-48 and DS-09-05, Councillor Freeman left the meeting. (Time: 6:51 p.m.)

Councillor Witmer assumed the Chair.

Susan Greatrix, City Clerk, advised that notice was advertised in the Waterloo Chronicle on March 18, 2009 and mailed on March 18, 2009 to public agencies, to all persons who spoke at or signed the registry at the September 22, 2008 Informal Public Meeting and to all persons who requested further notice.

Danielle Ingram, Development Planner, reviewed the report and responded to questions from Council.

Bernie Hermsen, MHBC Planning, on behalf of the applicant, requested Council’s support of the recommendations, and provided an overview of the building design and the site plan, noting that the existing transit pad is to be doubled in size.

As no one else was present to speak to the application, the Chair concluded the hearing.

Moved by Councillor d’Ailly, seconded by Mayor Halloran:

“That the Council of the City of Waterloo support Official Plan Amendment No. 73 and Zone Change Application Z-08-08 for the properties located at 247 & 253 King Street North, as per the recommendations contained in Section XIII of Report DS-09-18, dated March 9, 2009.”

Carried Unanimously
(Councillor Freeman absent for the vote)


b) DS-09-05 ZONING CHANGE APPLICATION Z-09-03
12 UNIVERSITY AVENUE EAST
TANEM DEVELOPMENTS LIMITED
Prepared By: Joel Cotter

Susan Greatrix, City Clerk, advised that notice was advertised in the Waterloo Chronicle on March 18, 2009 and mailed on March 18, 2009 to public agencies, to all persons who spoke at or signed the registry at the February 2, 2009 Informal Public Meeting and to all persons who requested further notice.

Joel Cotter, Development Planner, reviewed the report and responded to questions from Council.

Bernie Hermsen, MHBC Planning, on behalf of the applicant, requested that Council support the recommendation before it.

As no one else was present to speak to the application, the Chair concluded the meeting.

Moved by Mayor Halloran, seconded by Councillor Whaley:

“That Waterloo City Council receive Development Services report DS-09-05 and approve Zone Change Application Z-09-03, Tanem Developments Limited, for 12 University Avenue East in accordance with Section 9 of DS-09-05.”

Carried Unanimously
(Councillor Freeman absent for the vote)

[Spokes]

Im wondering if Tanem isn't just letting the leases for Starbucks and Pizza Pizza expire before moving forward? They don't seem to be moving across the street, and as far as I know there isn't room in their development just up University where Booster Juice moved (speaking of which, why isn't this location open yet?)

[jay]

I think your right about letting the leases run out. They are probably waiting on site permits and all that stuff anyways so probably no huge rush to kick them out.

[BuildingScout]

I think your right about letting the leases run out. They are probably waiting on site permits and all that stuff anyways so probably no huge rush to kick them out.

It is my understanding that sophisticated franchises like Starbucks only sign leases with options for unilateral extensions of 25 to 30 years. If Tanem want Starbucks to move likely they will have to buy them out.

[JoshG]

... why isn't [the new Booster Juice] location open yet?

It's definitely odd to have a new location basically ready-to-go for that long without the move actually taking place.

But I'd consider the new BJ location a downgrade in terms of visibility and accessibility. So if Starbucks and Pizza Pizza haven't come to terms on moving out yet and the building isn't coming down anytime soon... why give it up sooner than absolutely necessary? (unless there's some financial cost of waiting, e.g. the landlord charging rent on both locations)

[Spokes]

It's definitely odd to have a new location basically ready-to-go for that long without the move actually taking place.

But I'd consider the new BJ location a downgrade in terms of visibility and accessibility. So if Starbucks and Pizza Pizza haven't come to terms on moving out yet and the building isn't coming down anytime soon... why give it up sooner than absolutely necessary? (unless there's some financial cost of waiting, e.g. the landlord charging rent on both locations)

That had crossed my mind too, that there was no rush to move out of the corner development (which as you said, is far better from an exposure perspective). I cant imaging they're paying rent on both locations though. But that too crossed my mind.

[jay]

Something is happening behind the scenes, if the developer knew Pizza Pizza/Starbucks would balk at moving out, why have the rest of the tenets leave and bulldoze the other building?. Unless they left on their own accord, they could have negotiated a extension of the lease that would match whatever Pizza/Starbucks needed in time.

I'm sure there is legal means the developer can exercise to move out Pizza/Pizza Starbucks if they wanted to. Something is happening...Just don't know what :)

[RangersFan]

I wish Tanem had a website

[BuildingScout]

Starbucks typically signs a 10 year NNN lease with 2 five year options in which landlords are responsible for roof and structure.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Starbucks-Coffee---What-Commercial-Real-Estate-Investors-Should-Know&id=1149515

[diego]

Starbucks typically signs a 10 year NNN lease with 2 five year options in which landlords are responsible for roof and structure.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Starbucks-Coffee---What-Commercial-Real-Estate-Investors-Should-Know&id=1149515

So how long has Starbucks been there?

[BuildingScout]

So how long has Starbucks been there?

A bit less than ten years, so likely they still have a year or two left in the original ten year period, plus the full five year options.

I was told by a business owner there a couple of years back that they got a lot of pressure to move out as construction was "imminent". Why the two year delay after the prompt demolition of the building in the back last year and eviction of tenants in the front? Was it due to economic conditions or did they overestimate their ability to evict two large corporations with unlimited access to lawyers? Other reasons maybe?

[Spokes]

A bit less than ten years, so likely they still have a year or two left in the original ten year period, plus the full five year options.

I was told by a business owner there a couple of years back that they got a lot of pressure to move out as construction was "imminent". Why the two year delay after the prompt demolition of the building in the back last year and eviction of tenants in the front? Was it the due to economic conditions or did they overestimate their ability to evict two large corporations with unlimited access to lawyers? Other reasons maybe?

Thats my guess. I think they thought they could convince them to move to their property across the street, but realisticly, what's in it for either tenant? They aren't as good of properties as where they currently are.

[KevinL]

Thats my guess. I think they thought they could convince them to move to their property across the street, but realisticly, what's in it for either tenant? They aren't as good of properties as where they currently are.

Exactly! Starbucks has possible THE best location within several blocks, on a major corner with top visibility, steps away from a massive university population. Why would they move without a very good incentive?

[Spokes]

Exactly! Starbucks has possible THE best location within several blocks, on a major corner with top visibility, steps away from a massive university population. Why would they move without a very good incentive?

They wouldnt. Nor should they. (from a business perspective, from a development and what I would liek to see perspective....get them outta there!!!)

With all this in mind, this could be a major roadblock for this project for a few years depending on the lease situation. Anyone want to pretend to be a reporter and call Tanem and find out whats up?

[WatDot]

As "probably" an unrelated note, a Starbucks location is being opened in the Concourse at Laurier. It's run by Aramark but it will be hitting up the student market starting in September.

[waterloo_local]

Wow, there is so much speculation on here.

1) Starbucks has not been there "just under 10 years". Clearly no one fact checks, but that's the internet and blogs. Scotia Bank had the entire right side of this property and left in the Spring of 2005. I had an account there.

2) Starbucks came in August / September 2005 and probably had a 10 year lease with options for another 10-15 (2x5, 1 x10, etc.)

3) No Starbucks would not want to move locations, but they have 15,000 locations world wide and would have obviously run into this scenario before. They would agree to close for 2-3 years of lost income + construction costs to come back. It would have cost probably $1.5 million to get Starbucks out for a few years, but for a $50M+ development, it would be worth it.

4) Tanem Developments is owned by Nelson Krauss of Krauss Carpets. Apparently he is not going forward with this development and is in the process of selling the building

5) There is now "For Lease" signs in the building and DTZ lists this property "For Lease" with all the left side of the building that is vacant. They would not be leasing it up if the development was continuing

[jay]

Wonder if they ran into financing problems?

I can't see any other way considering half the tenants left and they demo'd a building.

[waterloo_local]

I don't think someone like Mr. Krauss would purchase $10M worth of property if they couldn't secure financing.

They bought a minimum of 5 buildings
- King & University where Booster Juice / Starbucks is
- Brown building behind that (demolished)
- White office building
- Long brown building along King St (behind 7-11)
- White Sleep Ezzzzz building

Don't know what the purchase prices were but a few of those would have gone for the $2.5-4M range each

Whole thing seems odd

[BuildingScout]

1) Starbucks has not been there "just under 10 years". Clearly no one fact checks, but that's the internet and blogs. Scotia Bank had the entire right side of this property and left in the Spring of 2005. I had an account there.

2) Starbucks came in August / September 2005 and probably had a 10 year lease with options for another 10-15 (2x5, 1 x10, etc.)

3) No Starbucks would not want to move locations, but they have 15,000 locations world wide and would have obviously run into this scenario before. They would agree to close for 2-3 years of lost income + construction costs to come back. It would have cost probably $1.5 million to get Starbucks out for a few years, but for a $50M+ development, it would be worth it.

4) Tanem Developments is owned by Nelson Krauss of Krauss Carpets. Apparently he is not going forward with this development and is in the process of selling the building

5) There is now "For Lease" signs in the building and DTZ lists this property "For Lease" with all the left side of the building that is vacant. They would not be leasing it up if the development was continuing

1) Chillax dude. I was going from memory. I moved here in 2001 and the starbucks opened a few years later. My guess was one or two, it turns out it was four.

2) Just like I said.

3) Yes, they often run across them and often they say take a hike. You see, once a location has become popular that creates value for Starbucks and increased traffic for the entire block. They don't like to give that up easily which is why they sign leases with automatic renewals in the first place. Of course they have a price over which they will move, but it won't be cheap (my guess is three-four years rent). Moreover a few years back the owners were ready to go ahead with the construction and they didn't so clearly they didn't reach a mutually agreeable price with the tenants.

4) Thanks for the info.

5) This seems pretty clear already.

[Spokes]

Well if all of that is indeed true, that really sucks. I hope this project is not dead.

If he were to sell it, would the project approval go with the site to the new owner, or would the new owner need to reapply for approval?

[RangersFan]

Wow, there is so much speculation on here.

4) Tanem Developments is owned by Nelson Krauss of Krauss Carpets. Apparently he is not going forward with this development and is in the process of selling the building


I hope this isn't true as I was really looking forward to seeing this project move forward. Do you know Mr. Krauss, out of curiosity?

[Spokes]

I don't think someone like Mr. Krauss would purchase $10M worth of property if they couldn't secure financing.

They bought a minimum of 5 buildings
- King & University where Booster Juice / Starbucks is
- Brown building behind that (demolished)
- White office building
- Long brown building along King St (behind 7-11)
- White Sleep Ezzzzz building

Don't know what the purchase prices were but a few of those would have gone for the $2.5-4M range each

Whole thing seems odd

But why would he buy 10 mil worth of property if he's not going to do anything with it?

[RangersFan]

This isn't a good sign (http://www.dtzbarnicke.com/Client/JJB/JJBNA%20Web%20Listing%20db.nsf/084fc19d2f04a5ff852570d8007578e7/2ce622217c5b04628525774b005e5a4e!OpenDocument)

[Spokes]

This isn't a good sign (http://www.dtzbarnicke.com/Client/JJB/JJBNA%20Web%20Listing%20db.nsf/084fc19d2f04a5ff852570d8007578e7/2ce622217c5b04628525774b005e5a4e!OpenDocument)

Not good at all.

[waterloo_local]

No I don't know Krauss.

I too think the project looks great, much higher quality than the other high rises being contemplated.

If he were selling the development to a new company, they could pick up the development process already, if the entire company was sold. It seems that the buildings are being sold individually, so I would predict the development is dead, at least in its current conception.

[jay]

I wonder if they already paid the city the $160,000 or so that waived the development fees.

I not saying the guy is broke or anything, but someone doesn't buy all these buildings and put a proposal though, start demoing building, kick tenets out if he was just going sell a year later. They hit a snag somewhere and now they had to walk away. Maybe it was the money, maybe it wasn't.

[BuildingScout]

I wonder if they already paid the city the $160,000 or so that waived the development fees.

I not saying the guy is broke or anything, but someone doesn't buy all these buildings and put a proposal though, start demoing building, kick tenets out if he was just going sell a year later. They hit a snag somewhere and now they had to walk away. Maybe it was the money, maybe it wasn't.

Isn't this the type of project that the Cora group likes to pick up on the cheap? Are they still active in Waterloo?

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Isn't this the type of project that the Cora group likes to pick up on the cheap? Are they still active in Waterloo?

Cora? They are the managing most of the buildings in the Research and Technology Park.

[Spokes]

Cora did sell at least one of the RT Park buildings when they sold a lot of their stuff to Realex. - http://news.therecord.com/article/373700

My thinking is along the line's of Jay's. Something just doesnt add up.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Tanem has typically developed residential subdivisions such as part of Conservation Meadows in Waterloo. They also have close ties to Stamm Investments (http://www.stamminvestments.com/).

Maybe their just not used to bringing a large mixed use tower to have a shovel in the ground?

[waterloo_local]

I suspect they thought they would get this project started quickly and be done in under 3-4 years.

Reality is it takes 3-4 years to get all the development work done and another 3-4 for construction. Requires "patient money" and long term investment. Perhaps Tanem just decided they weren't interested in another 5 years or work + another 20 to get the financing paid back.

Unfortunately only Tanem knows!

[urbandreamer]

This is fantastic news: the proposal was craptacular!

I bet Krauss got hit by the credit crunch & concerns about a potential double bottom coming in the recession. Look at what happened to many commercial real estate investors in Amercia....Canada really is no different, it's just taking longer to sort out.

Perhaps within 5 years a new better proposal, with attractive Toronto-style architecture and aimed at more than just students could be built? Or maybe WLU is interested in the property?

[taylortbb]

I actually considered this to be one of the few proposals that wasn't targeted at students. It wasn't a spectacular building, but it would look better than 90% of what gets built here. I would love to have something of the quality of City Place here, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[diego]

This is fantastic news: the proposal was craptacular!

I bet Krauss got hit by the credit crunch & concerns about a potential double bottom coming in the recession. Look at what happened to many commercial real estate investors in Amercia....Canada really is no different, it's just taking longer to sort out.

Perhaps within 5 years a new better proposal, with attractive Toronto-style architecture and aimed at more than just students could be built? Or maybe WLU is interested in the property?

How was this proposal "craptacular"? I think it had many decent urban design principles and it was never intended for it to be only for students, actually I think it wasn't aimed for students at all.

[johnba]

How was this proposal "craptacular"? I think it had many decent urban design principles and it was never intended for it to be only for students, actually I think it wasn't aimed for students at all.

I've been lurking at this forum for a few months now. urbandreamer is just a troll who comes around once in a while to make comments about the superiority of urban design and architecture in Toronto, and to badmouth new projects in Waterloo. He's wrong about this project--it wasn't intended for students--and he brings a generally negative attitude to the forum.

Moreover, he doesn't even live in Waterloo.

[urbandreamer]

First off--City Place is a terrible model of development to emulate--it's cheap architecture and even cheaper build quality!

If we're talking about bringing big city style to Waterloo, why not take the best not the worst from large cities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? I think King & U deserves all four corners to be developed not with highrises but rather midrises, stuff like 12 Degrees on Beverly Street, Toronto (http://www.12degrees.ca/) or 75 Portland/Thompson Residences/32 Stewart Street/etc by Peter Freed (http://www.freeddevelopments.com/) or perhaps even better, stuff like Montreal's Cité Multimedia/Griffintown's M9 condos. (http://www.habiter.com/condominiumm9phase2/en/)

Waterloo was founded by Europeans/German Mennonites, so why can't it have sophisticated Euro-style architecture everywhere, not just at the PI? It should have ambitions beyond being a small-minded town with third rate design aspirations! I still have ties to Waterloo--my parents still live there. I hate going there and seeing more of the same old, lame old cheap architecture going up. Time to grow up Waterloo!

[jay]

I hear ya, but I think the real reason Waterloo is lacking in design on some buildings is the developers don't care enough to spend the cash for the A list talent. Sure the city could set higher standards, but it still wouldn't change a whole lot.

In places like Toronto where downtown property is hard and expensive to come by it, it gives incentives to developers to go above and beyond on the basis they can charge out the ass for the buildings, plus there is more competition.. It's not even fair to compare urban design with a city that has 5 million people to a city with 500k. I can go on for days about this, and business, etc.. But the point is Waterloo is not Toronto.

[Spokes]

I've been lurking at this forum for a few months now. urbandreamer is just a troll who comes around once in a while to make comments about the superiority of urban design and architecture in Toronto, and to badmouth new projects in Waterloo. He's wrong about this project--it wasn't intended for students--and he brings a generally negative attitude to the forum.

Moreover, he doesn't even live in Waterloo.

You took the words out of my mouth! Thanks. And welcome to Wonderful Waterloo, glad you're contributing now!

And you're dead on, this one looks good, serves a good need, and isn't designed for students, as has been clearly stated in news reports

[Spokes]

I hear ya, but I think the real reason Waterloo is lacking in design on some buildings is the developers don't care enough to spend the cash for the A list talent. Sure the city could set higher standards, but it still wouldn't change a whole lot..

The city does need to push the developers. Why would they spend more than they have to if they don't have a reason to. If they can't get their money out of it, they won't do it, but there should be some standards (yes I know there are new urban design standards but we haven't seen much from those yet)

Urbandreamer was dead on though when he said it's time to grow up Waterloo. But that is a mindset that needs to be grasped by not only developers, but councillors and the public as well. And it's something that doesnt seem to be happening.

[taylortbb]

First off--City Place is a terrible model of development to emulate--it's cheap architecture and even cheaper build quality!

If we're talking about bringing big city style to Waterloo, why not take the best not the worst from large cities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? I think King & U deserves all four corners to be developed not with highrises but rather midrises, stuff like 12 Degrees on Beverly Street, Toronto (http://www.12degrees.ca/) or 75 Portland/Thompson Residences/32 Stewart Street/etc by Peter Freed (http://www.freeddevelopments.com/) or perhaps even better, stuff like Montreal's Cité Multimedia/Griffintown's M9 condos. (http://www.habiter.com/condominiumm9phase2/en/)

I like the look of the City Place buildings, it's personal opinion. I also like the look of that 12 Degrees building, probably even more than City Place, but I like them both. I don't know anything about the build quality, and that's an entirely different issue.

Cost is an issue. I don't know what those 12 Degrees units costs, but I bet it's too much for the average person to afford. If we want to get massive numbers of people living in urban areas the places need to be affordable.

[jay]

Urbandreamer was dead on though when he said it's time to grow up Waterloo. But that is a mindset that needs to be grasped by not only developers, but councillors and the public as well. And it's something that doesnt seem to be happening.

I agree, everyone needs to, but I still think it is a money issue and when $500,000 can fetch you a 4-5000sq/ft house in the area there isn't a huge demand for luxury buildings. Beautiful design usually comes with a huge price tag and the money needs to be re-couped.

[urbandreamer]

I disagree. Good design can be affordable. Case in point: 6605 rue Hochelaga (http://www.mtlurb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13319) --a poorer cousin to stuff in Montreal, but imho, very good value. You can buy a 700sf unit here for just $169,000 (http://www.realestatevine.ca/property/66927-6605-rue-hochelaga-anjou-qc), surely comparable to Waterloo prices? Drool over the architecture with me, will y'all...:

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7848/img3843o.jpg by Eastman on Mtlurb.com

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5069/img3845lx.jpg

HoMa is roughly comparable to pre-1970s Waterloo in size, but obviously much denser. Land prices are perhaps a bit cheaper, but still, a good model for Waterloo to follow....

[Spokes]

I would love to see buildings like that. I think it and BPR lofts are sort of similar.

[waterloo_local]

Maybe I don't appreciate subtleties of architecture, but the building looks fairly generic and square. I like the green accents and the windows, but the remainder of the building is a big square.

[Newgrad]

Maybe I don't appreciate subtleties of architecture, but the building looks fairly generic and square. I like the green accents and the windows, but the remainder of the building is a big square.

I tend to agree with you. Take away the green and replace the bricks with stucco and you have just another generic building. Maybe we are missing some of its subtleties?

[IEFBR14]

Take away the green... Maybe we are missing some of its subtleties?
Don't sell colour short. It can make a huge difference in defining the character of a building or even an entire province, e.g. Newfoundland:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS80GmT4MMD1SuHrZAims66I5tiywSaQ CckTSCI8PGdCpViXMo&t=1&usg=__USIDcUlAJSljxar90y-BdNY6RAU=

And best of all the added cost compared to drab concrete grey or white stucco is extremely modest.

[Urbanomicon]

Don't sell colour short. It can make a huge difference in defining the character of a building or even an entire province, e.g. Newfoundland:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS80GmT4MMD1SuHrZAims66I5tiywSaQ CckTSCI8PGdCpViXMo&t=1&usg=__USIDcUlAJSljxar90y-BdNY6RAU=

And best of all the added cost compared to drab concrete grey or white stucco is extremely modest.

Maybe it's just me, and being an engineer, I have very little sense of aesthetics, but those multicoloured townhouses look rediculous.

[Newgrad]

Don't sell colour short. It can make a huge difference in defining the character of a building or even an entire province, e.g. Newfoundland:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS80GmT4MMD1SuHrZAims66I5tiywSaQ CckTSCI8PGdCpViXMo&t=1&usg=__USIDcUlAJSljxar90y-BdNY6RAU=

And best of all the added cost compared to drab concrete grey or white stucco is extremely modest.

I think you changed the meaning of my comment when you cut part of it out :p I'm not suggesting that the colour is a bad thing in that building. I'm just saying that I don't think they have done anything incredibly creative with the architecture of the building that we were shown. If anything I think your comment compliment's my point. They just upgraded some of the aesthetics of that building. But it definitely does have a big impact on the final presentation of the building. Certainly woulnd't take much to turn our cookie cutter university buildings into something more sleek like that building.

[waterloo_local]

I think this is all getting off of this Tag which is supposed to be about 247 king st n, although I still like the discussion.

[IEFBR14]

those multicoloured townhouses look rediculous.
Perhaps, but not in St John's or elsewhere in NL.

My point isn't that this sort of colour treatment would look appropriate on King St N but rather that creative use of colour can do a lot to give a building, a development or even a neighbourhood some character, charm and class. Compare the photo I posted to the sterility of most townhouse developments in Southern Ontario where every unit is the same boring shade of brown brick like, say, 144 Park:

http://1dl.us/xP

Moreover colour is an inexpensive way to make stucco or wood, etc. surfaces stand out, even look funky. And it's a lot cheaper than other alternatives.

[Newgrad]

Moreover colour is an inexpensive way to make stucco or wood, etc. surfaces stand out, even look funky. And it's a lot cheaper than other alternatives.

The only thing I'd like to add is "good". The colours we've seen used on King St for that monstrosity north of University is an example of colours you don't want to use. :)

[Spokes]

The only thing I'd like to add is "good". The colours we've seen used on King St for that monstrosity north of University is an example of colours you don't want to use. :)

Yes...that's true.

A couple projects that come to mind with some great use of colour (in Ottawa) - Mondrian and The Wellington at Island Park

Mondrian:

http://jamieloubier.8m.com/PictureStorage/Mondrian/RenderingBank@Laurier.gif
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140146

Wellington at Island Park:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2448/4095311191_be04d2a1cd_b.jpg
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=163093

[KevinL]

A couple projects that come to mind with some great use of colour (in Ottawa) - Mondrian and The Wellington at Island Park

Excellent examples, especially the second. Bold, dramatic colour! Unique and intriguing patterning! You want to draw the eye, not sour it.

[Spokes]

Excellent examples, especially the second. Bold, dramatic colour! Unique and intriguing patterning! You want to draw the eye, not sour it.

Im pretty sure it's similar size to the42. It's 6 floors. Maybe not quite as long. But I think projects like this one would fit in everywhere around the Region.

[Spokes]

Is this project confirmed that it's cancelled?

[UrbanWaterloo]

Unfortunately it looks like this proposal is dead. There's some activity happening at the former Runners' Choice.

247 King Street North - August 4, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-August42010-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247KingStreetNorth-August42010-2.jpg

[Spokes]

That's a real shame. This was going to be one really nice mixed use projects. This intersection needs them badly. In time I guess.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

This project looks like our version of 1 Bloor (http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?748-1-Bloor-East-DEAD-AND-BURIED-(Bazis-2s-Varacalli)/page220)in many ways - it's located at one of the busiest intersections in the region, demolition started...one was to be one of the tallest building in city is cancelled.

[GGHTransit]

Am I the only one missing something here? Where has it been said other than on this forum that the project has been cancelled?? :RpS_huh:

[Spokes]

Am I the only one missing something here? Where has it been said other than on this forum that the project has been cancelled?? :RpS_huh:

Well that's why I've got a little bit of hope still since it's only one or two members citing its not going to happen.

But if you look at a combination of lack of activity on the site, tenants not moving, where they were supposed to move being leased, and I think space in the to be demolished plaza being leased, it doesn't look good.

[UrbanWaterloo]

I haven't seen it officially cancelled, but when 247 King Street North (http://www.dtzbarnicke.com/Client/JJB/JJBNA%20Web%20Listing%20db.nsf/084fc19d2f04a5ff852570d8007578e7/2ce622217c5b04628525774b005e5a4e!OpenDocument) is being leased again rather than being demolished, it makes me think this proposal is dead. Who knows, maybe it will spring back to life like the Arrow Lofts or BarrelYards (both of which stagnated for awhile).

[GGHTransit]

^ Perhaps, but there's a for lease sign on the building still yet to be demolished for the new courthouse on the corner at Frederick and Duke yet (from the renderings of the courthouse it appears the public courtyard/square area will be there, correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe the developer is trying to make some money off the place until the other leases run out or whatever...the lease for whoever's moving in there may have a time limit on it.

[Spokes]

Thats true, if Starbucks/Pizza Pizza were sticking to their guns and waiting out their lease, then they may want tenants for the time being.

[mpd618]

I hate to point out the obvious, but has anyone actually tried contacting Tanem directly?

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

They might just be signing short, (i.e. 2 year) leases for retailers. Since this area is so student dominated, service oriented businesses that cater to students would do well here and could be attracted to the plaza - i.e. cell phone retailer, barber/budget hair salon, driver training classroom, student insurance agency. They don't really need to do a lot of improvements to the units - just take them as is with a no frills attitude. Stores testing out the market or waiting for prime real estate to open would also be attracted here. Sure it might not look that appealing for the next few years, but if Tanem must wait for firm leases to expire (i.e. Starbucks, Pizza Pizza), this would still allow them to treat this as an income property for the time being. I also bet the popular Halloween store that usually opens here in October will be back this year.

However, this theory doesn't really make sense since they tore down the old Club Mill/Canada Computers building behind and moved most of the tenants. Also, why isn't Booster Juice moving to their new location around the corner, being that it's complete?? This just doesn't really add up. Still though, if there is stuff going on behind the scenes, they could probably still act on these short term leases.

[KevinL]

there's a for lease sign on the building still yet to be demolished for the new courthouse on the corner at Frederick and Duke

To my knowledge, that building is being used purely as a construction office until the structure is up elsewhere on the property, then it will be torn down.

The For Lease signs must have predated the start of construction, and were forgotten.

[waterloo_local]

I have heard that Tanem will no longer own this building after this month and PM 365, a local real estate company will be the new owners.

They have not purchased the white office building (255 king st) and the proposed large development will not be going forward. Perhaps the new guys will do something on a smaller scale eventually.

Restaurants / food service will not go to this plaza on a short term lease. They need to put $125k+ into leaseholds and equipment, minimum, and they wouldn't do that if it was a 2 year lease. They would need at least 5 year lease with an option

[UrbanWaterloo]

I have heard that Tanem will no longer own this building after this month and PM 365, a local real estate company will be the new owners.

That looks right to me...

247 King Street North - August 10, 2010

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/Waterloo/247KingStreetNorth-August102010-1a.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/Waterloo/247KingStreetNorth-August102010-2.jpg

[Spokes]

I wonder if they bought the big hole too?

I hope they develop this property eventually. Even if its not the 25 floors, I hope something happens.

Tanem owns most of the stuff across the street though right? Including where Burito Boyz is right?

[waterloo_local]

Tanem is selling the property across the street where Burito Boyz is. Its listed with DTZ for $3.8M.

They sold the hole to PM365 to my knowledge but have kept the white office building. I suspect that will get sold eventually.

[WatDot]

I hope they develop this property eventually. Even if its not the 25 floors, I hope something happens.

Well the good side is this PM365 company manages both commercial and residential properties, so they are the right fit for what was proposed. Maybe they will partner with a property development company? What they are buying is a lot of property in a high priced location. A lot to take on for PM365 on their own, looking at their portfolio.

[Spokes]

Well the good side is this PM365 company manages both commercial and residential properties, so they are the right fit for what was proposed. Maybe they will partner with a property development company? What they are buying is a lot of property in a high priced location. A lot to take on for PM365 on their own, looking at their portfolio.

Yup, I hope they do whatever they need to to build something cool here. I can't imaging they're just going to sit on it, although you never know.

This corner needs to get developed because the other ones aren't any time soon. The NE corner would be the best bet with Tanem selling a bunch of property, but the 7/11 stops just about anything from happening. SE won't happen because RBC is renovating their branch so they're not going anywhere any time soon. And SW is WLU.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Here's a better look of what's happening at the former Runners Choice.

August 16, 2010

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa262/AndrewEH/Waterloo/247KingStreetNorthFormerRunnersChoice-August162010.jpg

[waterloo_local]

I'm told that PM365 gets the building in a few weeks and they have a company called Union Burger coming to the plaza.

Apparently a spinoff from the Crabby Joes / Coffee Culture guys.

[KevinL]

I only rode by quickly, but there's a banner for a spa at the old Runners Choice now.

[sabinenassar]

I only rode by quickly, but there's a banner for a spa at the old Runners Choice now.

\anybody knows what's going on? I am a frequent visitor to runners' choice and now see a new spa in the same location????

[waterloo_local]

You must not have read any of the previous posts in this forum.

Runners Choice moved to the white office building behind this one, as this one was slated to be demolished and a new high rise put in its place.

The project was cancelled by Tanem Developments and the property has been sold. Runners Choice will be permanently located in the white office building, at 255 King St N

SpaBar has leased the space where Runners Choice used to be. The other tenants, Booster Juice, Pizza Pizza, Starbucks will remain where they are.

[jay]

What will happen with the location Booster Juice opened in the white building. It just sits empty and is designed into one of there stores.

Seems like a big waste of money. Sucks for whoever owns the Booster Juice if they are out that money for the reno that happened in the white building.

[waterloo_local]

Its my understanding that Tanem Developments paid for the construction of Runners Choice, Rogers, and Booster Juice to move to the white office building.
Now that the project is cancelled, Booster Juice will stay where they are and the developer is out the cost of that temporary store.

You are right though, a big big waste of money. Rogers, Runners Choice, Booster Juice, + MacDonnal Village being bought out, all probably cost $500k-$1m and it was all for nothing.

[UrbanWaterloo]

September 24, 2010

Here's a photo of Spabar (former Runners' Choice).
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247%20King%20Street%20North%20-%20September%2024%2C%202010%20-%201%20Resized.JPG

There's another building permit where MacDonnal Village used to be.
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/247%20King%20Street%20North/247%20King%20Street%20North%20-%20September%2024%2C%202010%20-%202%20Resized.JPG

[waterloo_local]

Walked by it the other day. Inside looks good. I think they should have done a better sign, individual channel letters like Booster Juice and Starbucks.

[SP!RE]

What a huge blow to this intersection. It's like it's cursed.

I really hope-- and do have a lot of hope-- that another developer will bring up a proposal for this spot. But I guess it all depends on who owns the piece of land now. Sigh.

[waterloo_local]

New landlords are keeping the building in place and will develop something behind where the hole is.

The plaza is here to stay, but hopefully will get a makeover soon

[Trogdor]

New landlords are keeping the building in place and will develop something behind where the hole is.

The plaza is here to stay, but hopefully will get a makeover soon

That's too bad...I still had hope we would see a cool new development on that corner.

[Spokes]

That's too bad...I still had hope we would see a cool new development on that corner.

Ya if they develop the whole as something on its own, we'll never see a big project on the corner. Any time soon that is.

[KevinL]

I just hope they do something with the hole in the ground in the meantime; I just noticed this morning how much an eyesore it is.

[waterloo_local]

The new Spa Bar is open, walked past the other day. Looks good inside (old runners choice unit) but the signage is terrible. It looks like they wrapped vinyl around a light box.

[KevinL]

the signage is terrible. It looks like they wrapped vinyl around a light box.

A typical method for temporary signage. I imagine they'll upgrade that soon enough, provided they're staying long-term.