Knox Presbyterian Church | 10 m | 2 fl

[Spokes]

Knox Presbyterian Church
Website: www.knoxwaterloo.ca
Architect: Baird Sampson Neuert Architects (http://www.bsnarchitects.com/)
Contractor: Devlan Construction Ltd (http://www.devlan.com/)

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0001_image001.png

[Spokes]

Design Drawings (November 2008) (http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/?page_id=48)
http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0001_image001.png

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0002_image003.png

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0003_image004.png

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0005_image006.png

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0007_image008.jpg

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0008_image010.jpg

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0010_image013.png

http://knoxwaterloo.ca/NewFace/wp-content/uploads/nov-2008-concept-images/slide0016_image022.jpg [/CENTER]

Construction Updates | http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?cat=9

Construction Update: April 11
Posted: 04|19|10 at 9:36 pm | http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?p=1315
There certainly is a lot of excitement in Waterloo about our new building. Everywhere I go people in the community are asking about our new church. People are amazed at the progress and make comments like, “you hardly ever see a church being built these days – not in the middle of a city.” I have had more than one person ask me if I knew that our roof trusses seemed to be in upside down; and if I was concerned if the termites were heading into town! How about you? Are your friends and neighbours asking you about our building site? What’s been happening this week? The framing and sheating on roof continues to close up building, piping for the fire sprinkler system continues to be installed throughout the building, the heating and air conditioning crews are installing the duct work in the ceiling of sanctuary and other areas and the electricians and plumbers will have all the under floor work done. Next week we’ll have the granular A gravel installed so that the concrete floors can be poured.

Construction Update: 25 April
Posted: 04|24|10 at 9:50 pm | http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?p=1345
We see a lot of work going on in the building, but there is still a lot of work being done by members of our church too. For example, our Knox Redevelopment Committee continues to meet on a regular basis and the Knox Site Group still meets every two weeks with the contractor and architect. In the next week or so, the under floor electrical conduits and under floor plumbing will be complete. Gravel will be brought in and packed to bring the fill up to the level for pouring concrete floors. Duct work for the heating and air conditioning system and piping for the fire sprinkler system is ongoing.

Construction Update: 2 May
Posted: 04|30|10 at 10:00 pm | http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?p=1360
I hope everyone saw the great article about our new church building in last Saturday’s K-W Record. It is our workmen who have coined us “the church with the smile” referring to the roof (particularly when you see it from Erb Street). The concrete floors for the area closes to the current building (Nursery/Toddler rooms, offices, washrooms, lounge, entrance) are starting to be poured and the granular A gravel will be completed in the Hall (getting it ready for concrete). Roof drains are being installed, along with the skylight over the chancel area. Heating and ventilation duct work continues in the Sanctuary ceiling and for other rooms on the main floor. Concrete footing and foundation for the Sanctuary ramp to the chancel will also be completed. The building is really starting to look like the design drawings and it will only be a few weeks before we can all take a look inside!

Construction Update: 6 May
Posted: 05|6|10 at 9:40 pm | http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?p=1384
We have some concrete floors in some areas, the floor will be poured for the Community space, the hall and the hall closets this week. Electrical work is continuing throughout the structure as is the duct work for air conditioning for the second floor and Sanctuary. The roof insulation and membrane will begin to be installed on the high roof and the roof drains will be connected from the roof to the underground piping. The framers continue to work on odds and ends and the first meeting will take place with the drywall foreman, the painters and carpenters.

Construction Update: 15 December
Posted: 12|15|10 at 7:44 pm http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?p=1981
One obvious new change over on the new site, is that the security fence is being removed.” The first thing you will notice right away, is that our beloved chancel wood work has been removed and taken away to be installed in the upper Knox Room in the new church. Thanks to Paul Ogram for painting the wall under the arch. In our new church they are busy laying the epoxy floor in the kitchen, and the bamboo floor in the Chancel and the Hall. The painter has now caught up to the drywall crew and there is only one drywaller left on site to tidy up loose ends. Our new pews are being installed the week of December 20th, and that’s the week our new appliances are arriving. Meanwhile work is ongoing on the sound system (the booth will arrive soon), shelving in the office areas, and drainage issues on the roof over the Sunday School rooms. Those who have had the chance to see the new space say it is “absolutely breath taking, and well worth waiting for!” Advent is a time of waiting….and we do so expectantly and with great hope and joy. Thanks again to all the Knox folk who work tirelessly on our behalf.

[Spokes]

Construction of ‘simple, elegant’ new church to begin

October 23, 2009
By Mirko Petricevic, Record staff

WATERLOO — Today the patch of ground beside Knox Presbyterian Church in Waterloo is just a parking lot.

If all goes as planned, next week it will be torn with gaping holes and heaped with piles of dirt.

And if the congregation’s prayers are answered without major delays, by this time next year the site will be home to a brand new church building.

“Simple, elegant,” Rev. Brooke Ashfield, one of Knox’s two ministers, said of the new building’s design. “The Presbyterian tradition does not go for flamboyant.

“But we do appreciate beauty,” he added. “We hope this will be a beautiful, functional building.”

Construction on the site, on the northeast corner of Caroline and Erb streets (across from the Canadian Clay & Glass Gallery), is expected to begin next week.

There are a number of reasons the congregation has decided to rebuild rather than renovate, Ashfield said.

The current church is a complex consisting of a sanctuary, gym and office spaces located in a hodge-podge of buildings constructed in 1927, 1957 and 1973. It’s built on seven different levels, so it would have needed two elevators to make it entirely accessible for physically handicapped parishioners.

The classrooms are getting cramped, said Ashfield, noting that the congregation includes 25 children in Grade 3. “We don’t have room,” he said.

Dave Blake, chair of the church’s redevelopment committee, said the aging church would require about $3 million to renovate. Building from scratch will cost about $6.9 million, he added.

“This gives us a clean slate to start anew,” Blake said.

So although some parishioners opposed the redevelopment plan because of the hefty price tag, more than 90 per cent voted to proceed.

The new building, to be constructed on two levels, will increase the church’s size to more than 24,000-square-feet from about 16,000-square-feet.

The ground floor will consist of a 400-person sanctuary and a multi-purpose gymnasium. Those two huge rooms will be separated by a common area where people can gather before and after events. Staff offices and a nursery will also be on the ground floor.

The upper level, running along only one side of the building so that the sanctuary and gym will have high ceilings, includes classrooms and a 100-person meeting room.

Concept drawings by the architect — Toronto-based Baird Sampson Neuert Architects — can be viewed on the church’s website, knoxwaterloo.ca.

Blake said the new building has also been designed to be used by the community for concerts, banquets and conferences.

Pews occupy most of the floor of the sanctuary, but rows of chairs near the altar can be removed for Christmas and Easter pageants, for Sunday services or for community events.

The sanctuary and multi-purpose gym are separated by an airy space, with tall panes of glass along one wall and modern plush chairs that wouldn’t look out of place in a modern library.

But their building will include remnants from the 121-year-old congregation’s history.

The pews being used in the current church will be refurbished and installed in the new sanctuary. The hand-carved oak trimming from the chancel will be refitted and installed in the upper-level community room. And stained glass windows from the 1880s will be inset high into one wall in the common gathering area between the gym and sanctuary.

“There will be a constant reminder of our past,” said Blake.

The current church won’t be demolished until the new building is ready to be occupied. In the meantime, the congregation will continue to worship and run its programs in the current church. Lack of parking won’t be a concern during construction because there is ample parking nearby during evenings and Sunday mornings.

Ashfield said the congregation considered moving to a 10-acre lot on the outskirts of town, but decided its place was in the city.

The church is across the road from Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics and the Centre for International Governance Innovation.

“We felt a spiritual component belongs in that mix,” he said. “This just fits.”

mpetricevic@therecord.com

http://news.therecord.com/article/618443 (http://news.therecord.com/article/618443)

[Spokes]

It's kind of hard to tell but it looks like the parking lot is both to the right and behind the church. I was really hoping it would be behind it, further up Caroline, thus leaving space fronting on Erb to be redeveloped. My fingers are still crossed, but I'm not too optimistic.

[RangersFan]

Pictures taken by me today Jan 24,2010

http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/leaffan431/KNOX/KP7.jpg
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/leaffan431/KNOX/KP8.jpg
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/leaffan431/KNOX/KP9.jpg
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/leaffan431/KNOX/KP10.jpg
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/leaffan431/KNOX/KP11.jpg
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/leaffan431/KNOX/KP12.jpg

[diego]

Am I the only one who thinks that a church in such a prominent lot in Uptown is a big waste?

[Spokes]

Am I the only one who thinks that a church in such a prominent lot in Uptown is a big waste?

Nope! I think I agree with you. I have mixed feelings though. On one hand, they've been uptown for a long time, they should be able to stay, but on the other hand, like you said, its quite prominant. The bottom line is that you can't really push churches out of the core, especially when you are encouraging people to live there. That may be a significant draw for some people. I do think it is an utter shame though that they'll have a surface lot there that ruins all chances of development beside it.

[RangersFan]

A quick shot from today Feb 22,2010
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac273/leaffan431/KNOX/KPFEB2210.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

I agree, the city should have done a land swap, perhaps with the Waterloo Public Library's surface parking lot. The church could have been built there, and a higher profile development gone at Caroline/Erb. It could have been a new expanded multi-storey WPL (if/when the city ever goes through with expansion of the main branch). Actually what would have been really cool is a 15/20/25 floor office tower, with the WPL's main branch occupying the majority of a 4 storey base.

March 6, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March6201-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March62010-1.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

In map form, swap city-owned orange (2) with Knox-owned red(1), and buy out the remaining portion of Knox's land (where the current church sits). Obviously way too late to do anything now though, but for future developments the municipality should be more pro-active.

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-ProposedLand.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

Finally, here's the...

Bauer Angle - March 6, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/UptownWaterloo-March62010-1b.jpg

[Spokes]

In map form, swap city-owned orange (2) with Knox-owned red(1), and buy out the remaining portion of Knox's land (where the current church sits). Obviously way too late to do anything now though, but for future developments the municipality should be more pro-active.




Ya but then the library looses a lot of parking right. Where would they offer parking for that?

[UrbanWaterloo]

Short-Term: able-bodied individuals would have parked where the new church is being constructed and where the old church will be torn down. The significantly fewer spots directly on the library's property would have had an emphasis on handicapped and young family parking.

Medium-Term: an expansion or preferably a new development would take place with underground/garage parking.

[Spokes]

Ya I don't know about the demographics of that branch, I'm not a WPL user, but the last thing I'd ever want to see is people not be able to access a public library.

[Greg Moore]

Ya I don't know about the demographics of that branch, I'm not a WPL user, but the last thing I'd ever want to see is people not be able to access a public library.
The last thing I'd ever want to see is a yoga class full of naked hairy dudes. :)

[Spokes]

The last thing I'd ever want to see is a yoga class full of naked hairy dudes. :)

Fair enough. Second last thing ;)

[urbandreamer]

WPL is quite decent. I used to spend my days there on my way home from work. (Working night shift has its perks.:)) I would say I was shocked at number of people who arrived by car/parking. It's a reminder of how car-centric all of Waterloo really is.:(

[Spokes]

WPL is quite decent. I used to spend my days there on my way home from work. (Working night shift has its perks.:)) I would say I was shocked at number of people who arrived by car/parking. It's a reminder of how car-centric all of Waterloo really is.:(

Yup, and a lot of people will want to go to the main/big branch even if it means driving to it. Same goes for the KPL's main branch.

[UrbanWaterloo]

March 29, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March2920-7.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March2920-6.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March2920-5.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March2920-4.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March2920-3.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March2920-2.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March2920-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-March292010-.jpg

[van Hemessen]

I still can't believe this structure is built entirely out of wood.

[panamaniac]

I still can't believe this structure is built entirely out of wood.

I had the same reaction. Not sure what I was expecting, but the wood framing surprised me. Will be interesting to see how this turns out.

[Spokes]

I had the same reaction. Not sure what I was expecting, but the wood framing surprised me. Will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Ya I was too. But then again I guess when you're only building two storeys you don't need to go with concrete?

[diego]

Ya I was too. But then again I guess when you're only building two storeys you don't need to go with concrete?

Will make it way easier to demolish in a few years, which I hope happens sooner rather than later.

[Brenden]

Will make it way easier to demolish in a few years, which I hope happens sooner rather than later.

come on is that needed?

[diego]

come on is that needed?

I'm just trying to say that it is an extremely valuable piece of land considering its location and that the church is already there. Speaking only from an intensification point of view, I'm not saying a church is not valuable but being that the old one will be demolished to make space for a parking lot (can someone confirm this please?), I just believe that the new church there is not using the space to its full potential.

[mpd618]

Really, if they were building the church to last, I think it would be looking quite a bit different.

[DHLawrence]

Will make it way easier to demolish in a few years, which I hope happens sooner rather than later.

Because the last thing we need in a downtown is a church...

[garthdanlor]

Because the last thing we need in a downtown is a church...

Well, many downtown congregations are having a difficult time attracting new members and are considering closing/moving/merging. I guess this one is doing OK.

BTW, ditto for me on the wood frame...really surprised to see that.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Speaking only from an intensification point of view, I'm not saying a church is not valuable but being that the old one will be demolished to make space for a parking lot (can someone confirm this please?) , I just believe that the new church there is not using the space to its full potential.

Agreed. It's not as though I don't want to see Knox stay Uptown, it's just they're not making the best use of this land (yes they're bulldozing their current church for a parking lot). If they wanted to keep their current proposal the city should have tried to get them to move to a less important piece of Uptown property (again just from an intensification POV). Alternatively, if they wanted to stay at that exact location, the city should have encouraged them to build a tower (either integrated or stand-alone) as well. Mixed-use properties involving religion can exist: see Tour KPMG in Montreal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_KPMG). If you're ever there in person, check out the history display as there are some amazing construction photos! I should try to find some on the net.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Montral-Tour_KPMG.JPG/347px-Montral-Tour_KPMG.JPG http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2580987371_57b94951b3.jpg
http://flickr.com/photos/25843576@N02/2580987371/

[UrbanWaterloo]

Not the best photos (if anyone has higher quality please share) but this is just to show how they built up a religious property in Montreal.

The Development of 1987-88
Christ Church Cathedral Montréal, Québec, Canada
http://www.montrealcathedral.ca/index.php/our-history/development-of-1987-88

Christ Church Cathedral, in the heart of downtown Montreal, was pointed to, gaped at and discussed by thousands of Montrealers morning, noon and night.
Resembling a giant ship in dry-dock, passers-by were arrested by the church's "floating" appearance; some were even heard to say "You wouldn't catch me going in there!". Sidewalk superintendents were numerous and eloquent - explaining their accurate (and not-so-accurate) engineering ideas to anyone who would listen.
This was in 1987, and the focus of attention was the Cathedral-on-stilts, as it came to be called,the stilts bearing the caissons for the underground excavations and new foundations constructed as part of a multi-million dollar office and retail development.
...
The development project comprised the building of a 34-storey office tower immediately to the north of the Cathedral which included a single parking level and two retail levels below the Cathedral, underground connections to Eaton's and The Bay department stores, and re-landscaped grounds. There is also a 10,000 sq. ft. mezzanine floor sandwiched between the Cathedral floor and the ceiling of the first retail level. This is occupied by the Canadian Bible Society, the Diocesan Bookroom and the Undercroft - home for the Cathedral's music, church school and out-reach programmes.
The Church Group - comprising the Cathedral, the Diocese of Montreal and the Canadian Bible Society - negotiated in 1985 and 1986 two agreements with the developers : Westcliff Development Corporation, First Quebec Corporation and Les Coopérants, a Mutual Insurance Company.
Underpinning of the Cathedral to make provision for the retail and parking levels was the engineering highpoint of the project. The work started at the end of February 1987, and was completed in November of the same year.
Thirty-three hollow cylindrical steel piles or 'caissons' were driven down to bedrock around the Cathedral walls and under the central tower. Twenty-three of these were just outside the Cathedral walls and were 36" in diameter. The ten driven from within the Cathedral crypt using a special machine were 26" in diameter. The caissons were driven to bedrock about 45-50 ft. below ground and a hole bored into the rock to ensure proper bearing.
The contractor lowered steel reinforcement cages into the caissons and filled them with concrete to create a column on which the Cathedral was supported.
On top of the caissons a grid of massive pre-stressed concrete beams was built, capable of carrying the weight of the Cathedral when spanning between the caissons after ground excavation was completed. The beams running across the Cathedral were generally 6' x 6' shaped in the form of a 'T'. The beams running from the back of the Cathedral towards the high altar were 4' deep x 3'9" wide.
Pre-stressing the beams means that they are able to carry much greater loads than ordinary reinforced concrete beams. High tensile steel wires were threaded through ducts placed in the beams and massive jacks used to stretch the wires and put the beams in compression before they took the Cathedral load (this is similar to carrying a small shelf-load of books from one location to another by pressing them together from each end).

http://www.montrealcathedral.ca/images/stories/ccc/stilts.jpg http://www.montrealcathedral.ca/images/stories/ccc/relev.jpg http://www.montrealcathedral.ca/images/stories/ccc/caissons.jpg

http://www.quinndressel.com/ProjectPortfolio/RENOVATION/64.jpg
"the dramatic and award winning retention system allowed for the integration of Montreal's 127 year old Christ Church Cathedral into a major downtown redevelopment scheme"
http://www.quinndressel.com/ProjectPortfolio/RENOVATION/Renovation.html

http://www.quinndressel.com/ProjectPortfolio/RENOVATION/66.jpg http://www.quinndressel.com/ProjectPortfolio/RENOVATION/65.jpg
http://www.quinndressel.com/ProjectPortfolio/RENOVATION/Renovation_moreInfo.html
Key to the success of the underground shopping mall, which was part of the "Cathedral Place" high-rise office development in the heart of downtown Montreal, was the feasibility of building a two-storey shopping mall and one level of parking under Christ Church Cathedral.
The church foundations, which had a history of settlement, were masonry spread footings supported on a layer of clay with glacial till and bedrock about 45 feet to 50 feet below grade. Putting the church on new foundations without interrupting services during the construction period was a considerable challenge.
The technical challenge was to minimize the building movements during or after the implemenation stage. The solution was a post-tensioned system which balanced the church loading and prevented any vertical movements of the already strained building. The wooden floor was left in place and all work was confined to the basement area, thus ensuring continuation of religious services throughout construction.
Caissons, socketed into bedrock at a depth of 18 m, were installed outside the church. Concrete beams - 1.8 m deep, designed to carry the building in section - were threaded through the existing foundations. A secondary system of 1.2 m deep girders was designed to enclose all masonry foundation elements and transfer the load to the main concrete beams. The soil was then excavated from under the building to leave it dramatically perched on stilts.
Throughout the entire operation, the cathedral remained open for regular services and special events.

[panamaniac]

Agreed. It's not as though I don't want to see Knox stay Uptown, it's just they're not making the best use of this land (yes they're bulldozing their current church for a parking lot). If they wanted to keep their current proposal the city should have tried to get them to move to a less important piece of Uptown property (again just from an intensification POV). Alternatively, if they wanted to stay at that exact location, the city should have encouraged them to build a tower (either integrated or stand-alone) as well. Mixed-use properties involving religion can exist: see Tour KPMG in Montreal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_KPMG). If you're ever there in person, check out the history display as there are some amazing construction photos! I should try to find some on the net.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Montral-Tour_KPMG.JPG/347px-Montral-Tour_KPMG.JPG http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2580987371_57b94951b3.jpg
http://flickr.com/photos/25843576@N02/2580987371/

I don't think you should hold a church congregation to a different standard that other private landholders Churches are not in the development business and there was/is nothing to stop developers from proposing a tower on the site either incorporating the new church building or instead of it. The Montreal example is particularly impressive, but there are lots of others. If private developers were crying out for intensification sites in Uptown, I could see the reactions on this thread but otherwise, some of the comments on the thread seem a bit harsh. Although as die-hard Presbyterians, I am sure the Knox congregation can take it ;)

[WatDot]

come on is that needed?

Meh. The church is all about making money. Someone will offer them a pretty penny and they will be out of there faster than a confession from a nun.
Locally, St. Michael's Church offered to sell to Laurier several years back (as per former President Bob Rosehart). The cost of maintaining the older iconic churches I am sure use up plenty of funds. But don't get me wrong, I hope they continue to maintain the historically and architectually significant ones.

[jay]

Been to Montreal a couple of times and that church is nice. The underground mall is pretty cool also especially in the winter if you want to walk around.

[WatDot]

Thanks for that post UrbanWaterloo!! I've never seen those pics before. I have more of an appreciate now for what was done to keep that church. I've passed by it a hundred times without even thinking about it. And to follow up on my other post, this is a historcially and architectually significant church (i.e. worth saving). Other churches in Montreal have not been spared. There's one up on Saint-Laurent towards Little Italy that has become condos. IMO, a church like that should be spared and restored here in Waterloo. In Montreal it was converted (not completely destroyed) into condos.

[UrbanWaterloo]

I don't think you should hold a church congregation to a different standard that other private landholders

I'm not. If a private developer were proposing to build a drive-thru McDonald's on that site I wouldn't be happy either. It has nothing to do with the church, but rather the long-term value of that land.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I still can't believe this structure is built entirely out of wood.

I wonder how this would affect their fire insurance...

[UrbanWaterloo]

April 9, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/SAM_4919.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/SAM_4924.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/SAM_4925.jpg

[Spokes]

This went together quite quickly. It's a shame it looks like tan stucco for the finishing.

[jay]

Ya it's a shame they don't build church's like they used to. Least it's right on the corner.

[Spokes]

Its definitely better than I thought, but still not an ideal land use.

[UrbanWaterloo]

May 6, 2010

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-May62010-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-May62010-2.jpg

[Spokes]

Its looking better than expected. We'll see with the finish though. I like the big elongated windows, but for every big window there's a huge blank space, see facing Erb st.

[van Hemessen]

Blank spaces don't have to be a bad thing, though. It totally depends on the architecture. I'd give this one a chance.

[urbandreamer]

Where was the original Knox Presbyterian church--I mean the c.1880's version? I wonder if this church just attracts old people? The building looks good--I hope they keep the wood on display. Looks very West Coast.

[Spokes]

Blank spaces don't have to be a bad thing, though. It totally depends on the architecture. I'd give this one a chance.

Yup you're right. No judgements untill the cladding is up.

[panamaniac]

If those spaces are the windows for the Sanctuary, I will be interested to see what kind of stained glass goes in. This could be quite a jewel box at night.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Waterloo Council Meeting May 17, 2010 6:30 PM
http://www.waterloo.ca/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/CS_CLERKS_Minutes_2010/20100517_Packet_Council_Meeting.pdf

10. CONSENT MOTION
That Consent Motion Items (a) to (k) be approved.
b)Sign Variance Committee Report | Page 79
Report No: DS2010-021
Prepared By: Shirley Hayes
Recommendation: “That DS2010-021 be approved and that Council approve the following Sign Variance Applications:

S.V. 10-10, Knox Church (ground signs), 50 Erb Street West

as contained in the “Recommendation” Sections set forth in Development Services Report DS2010-021, dated April 16, 2010.”

Executive Summary

The Sign Variance Committee met on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 to consider the following applications:

S.V. 10-10 Knox Church, 50 Erb Street West (Uptown Ward)
The applicant is proposing two ground signs which exceed the maximum height and area permitted for each sign face. The first sign will be located within the westerly side yard facing Caroline Street at the intersection of Erb Street and the second sign will be located in the parking lot adjacent to the main entrance. The sign in the Caroline Street side yard will be externally lit whereas the Sign By-law requires the source of the illumination concealed within the sign. The Committee is recommending approval of these signs subject to conditions.

[UrbanWaterloo]

Construction Update: 6 May
Posted: 05|6|10 at 9:40 pm | http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?p=1384
We have some concrete floors in some areas, the floor will be poured for the Community space, the hall and the hall closets this week. Electrical work is continuing throughout the structure as is the duct work for air conditioning for the second floor and Sanctuary. The roof insulation and membrane will begin to be installed on the high roof and the roof drains will be connected from the roof to the underground piping.
The framers continue to work on odds and ends and the first meeting will take place with the drywall foreman, the painters and carpenters.

Sunday, May 30th – Sneak Peek!
Posted: 05|18|10 at 9:46 pm. | http://knoxwaterloo.ca/www/?p=1404
Exciting News !! Please join us on Sunday, May 30th for a Sneak Peek of our new church building !! After worship, everyone is invited to tour our new facility. Members of the Knox Redevelopment Committee will be on hand at various locations throughout the building to answer any questions you may have.

[urbandreamer]

12 June 2010: I fail to see how the new is an improvement on the old; and more importantly, why the old has to come down for a parking lot. Disgusting, and one of the reasons I'm glad I no longer live in the loo.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3784/dsc09187y.jpg

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/373/dsc09229h.jpg

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7062/dsc09224.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

July 20, 2010

South Side
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-July202010-1.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-July202010-2.jpg

Southwest Sides
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-July202010-3.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-July20201-1.jpg

Northwest Sides
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-July202010-5.jpg

North Side
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-July202010-6.jpg

Northeast Sides
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/UrbanWaterloo/Waterloo/KnoxPresbyterianChurch-July202010-7.jpg

[diego]

12 June 2010: I fail to see how the new is an improvement on the old; and more importantly, why the old has to come down for a parking lot. Disgusting, and one of the reasons I'm glad I no longer live in the loo.

Exactly... this is definitely the most shameful project in uptown.

[Spokes]

Exactly... this is definitely the most shameful project in uptown.

As a project, meh it is what it is, but given its location, ya, what you said.

I had so much hope for this intersection. Now, not happening, any time soon at least. And the surface lot in the middle of Uptown, ya thats a nice touch.

[BuildingScout]

Exactly... this is definitely the most shameful project in uptown.

Funny, we were just talking about how we didn't like the old church, how the parking lot in the corner was a blight on the landscape, and how much we prefered the new building. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[diego]

Funny, we were just talking about how we didn't like the old church, how the parking lot in the corner was a blight on the landscape, and how much we prefered the new building. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

From an architectural point of view, yeah the new one might be better, but from an urban planning/design point of view the new one is an incredible waste of valuable land... and considering that the old one will be converted into a beautiful surface parking lot it makes even less sense.

[DHLawrence]

Think of the lot as a big 'Reserved' sign--they can always build on it later.

[jay]

Most of the people who attend the church drive, so as I agree it sucks to have a parking lot in the middle of uptown, I'm not sure what they could have done. Maybe hide it more in the back, but if they plant some trees along ERB it may not look so bad.

[Spokes]

Ya I don't have much of a problem with it astheticly. Land use on the other hand....

I'd have prefered to see a smaller parking lot behind the church rather than right on Erb. That Erb property to me is too valuable to be parking. But its totally understandable that a church requires parking and underground is far too expensive for a church.

[metropolis]

Most of the people who attend the church drive, so as I agree it sucks to have a parking lot in the middle of uptown, I'm not sure what they could have done. Maybe hide it more in the back, but if they plant some trees along ERB it may not look so bad.

Don't buy that. There is a TON of available free parking in the area when masses are held. The upper floor next door of the Marsland parking is free on weeknights and weekends and is accessible via back stairs. Likewise the library lot across Dupont and even Waterloo Square parking across Erb. All those would more than satisfy their parking needs.

As a church the should be buildiing an architecturally fitting affordable housing complex here... something four stories or so would be appropriate but a parking lot? 0 need.

[mpd618]

Don't buy that. There is a TON of available free parking in the area when masses are held.

The current zoning and planning framework in the City of Waterloo does not understand the concept of shared parking. Every property must provide X amount of parking per square foot or unit on its own site. I wager that there would've been virtually no chance that Waterloo planning staff would consent to this church not providing its own parking.

[IEFBR14]

The current zoning and planning framework in the City of Waterloo does not understand the concept of shared parking...
That's an intriguing idea. How do you see that working in practice?

Suppose the church wanted to make a sharing deal with the library. That might seem like a great idea because the highest demand at the church would be on Sundays when the library is closed. But what if in the future the library wanted to open on Sundays? What if the church wanted to hold a major event on weekdays and/or evenings when the library's lot is full?

Moreover, even if such a sharing arrangement could work under the current circumstances, what happens if the city wanted to move the library elsewhere and use the real estate for some other purpose? Surely any agreement, especially one that's enshrined in some zoning regulations or placed on title would present problems for a future user of the property, especially if ownership were to change hands.

Now I realize that it's unlikely that the church or the city would be likely to sell their property any time soon, but that's not true in a parking sharing arrangement where one or more parties are commercial ventures.

[jay]

Shared parking is a good idea in theory, but it would never fly with the church. They have lots of cash and I doubt they care about urban design that doesn't include a parking lot.

Like IEFBR14 said, there's is so many situations that would arise, it doesn't make sense. Plus like I said, I don't think they care enough to even explore it. I think this even more with a church, because most of the congregation is probably over the age of 50 and most people of that generation drive and don't do public transit (as of today). Church's in general always have parking even in bigger cities, in most cases.

I'm just happy the built the new one on the corner to give it more of a presence. If they do some landscaping to hide the parking along ERB it won't be so bad. Looks better than what was there before.

[mpd618]

Some of the above points are addressed in the TDM encyclopedia entry on shared parking (http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm89.htm).


Shared parking is a good idea in theory, but it would never fly with the church. They have lots of cash and I doubt they care about urban design that doesn't include a parking lot.

If they were easily able to provide parking without using that parcel, I doubt they have so much cash that they wouldn't want to sell off the extra land (or use it in a better way).

[UrbanWaterloo]

September 10, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20September%2010%2C%202010%20-%202%20Resized.JPG

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20September%2010%2C%202010%20-%201%20Resized.JPG

[Spokes]

Great pics!

While it's not the best use of such a prime corner, this has come together quite nicely and doesn;t look too bad.

[Greg Moore]

It looks decent. Nicer than the old church imo.

Too bad it's set back from the sidewalk as far as it is.

[Spokes]

It looks decent. Nicer than the old church imo.

Too bad it's set back from the sidewalk as far as it is.

Ya the set back isn't ideal. Id be a little more ok with it if they treated everything up to the building as a wider sidewalk, and got rid of all the grass.

[UrbanWaterloo]

November 1, 2010

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20November%201,%202010%20-%201%20Resized.jpg http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20November%201,%202010%20-%202%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20November%201,%202010%20-%203c%20Resized.jpg http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20November%201,%202010%20-%204%20Resized.jpg

[Section ThirtyOne]

Ya the set back isn't ideal. Id be a little more ok with it if they treated everything up to the building as a wider sidewalk, and got rid of all the grass.

I think you guys get a bit carried away sometimes... :P

Yes this is a prime corner, but this is a church, not an office building. I think the relatively thin strip of grass around the building is in keeping with the design of quite a few urban churches. The two downtown churches in Ottawa immediately jump to mind. (the ones on Elgin and Sussex in particular both have grass IIRC)

[SP!RE]

The fear of grass beside sidewalks on these boards is immense; it's strange. Sidewalk width is most important.

Vancouver, for example, is the most urbanist, pedestrian focused city in Canada (or North America, really) and alongside its wide sidewalks, even in many places in the CBD, are strips of grass, and trees.

ie.)

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx232/andrewharv/vancouverliving2.jpg

I do agree, however, that having buildings set back on large lawns can be frustrating and seems a waste; un-landscaped, gratuitous "lawns" are a waste of space in most cases.

[Spokes]

See that's what I'd want. For me it's not a fear of grass, it's that I'd much rather see wide sidewalks than grass boulevards in our urban areas.

[IEFBR14]

Just curious, but who's responsible for the grass strip? In residential areas it's city property. The home owner is expected to maintain it, e.g. mow the grass in summer, but isn't supposed to alter the landscaping, e.g. by paving it over or installing paving stones (driveways excluded, of course.) So in this case is it up to the city to replace the grass with a wider sidewalk? And if so, presumably the cost comes out of the city's budget rather than paid for by the church as part of their construction project?

[UrbanWaterloo]

December 2, 2010

Stairwell is visible.
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20December%202,%202010%20-%201%20Resized.JPG

Sidewalk leading up to the church from Erb/Caroline has been installed.
http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20December%202,%202010%20-%203a%20Resized.JPG

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Dramatic new space planned for Knox Presbyterian
BY: LIZ MONTEIRO | Friday, December 31, 2010 | WATERLOO REGION RECORD


WATERLOO — Traditional churches are often a sanctuary from the outside world.

Some places of worship use stain-glass windows depicting religious images or statues of biblical figures to keep the world out, while other religious buildings are deliberately plain and free of distractions, allowing the faithful to focus on their God.

The revamped Knox Presbyterian Church is breaking free from the traditional approach of keeping the secular world at bay.

“This is a dramatic space,’’ said Rev. Brooke Ashfield...

To read FULL article on the The Record's website, please click here (http://www.therecord.com/community/faith/article/307837--dramatic-new-space-planned-for-knox-presbyterian).

[UrbanWaterloo]

January 17, 2011

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20January%2017,%202011%20-%201%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20January%2017,%202011%20-%203%20Resized.jpg

http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Uptown/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20January%2017,%202011%20-%204a%20Resized.jpg

[UrbanWaterloo]

March 14, 2011

http://wonderfulwaterloo.com/wdrive/Developments/Waterloo/Knox%20Presbyterian%20Church%20-%20March%2014,%202011%20Resized.JPG

[mpd618]

The old church is coming down.

519

[WaterlooNative]

Yet another project where it was easier to start from scratch rather than try to fix up what was there. I wonder what the environmental impact would have been of renovating what was there vs. building from the ground up? As a church, they should have been mindful of the wise use of resources. Instead, we have a new building that uses up new resources while presumably the vast majority of the old building was tossed in a landfill. Cynically, I notice that there is now a new piece of cleared property (ie parking lot) ready for redevelopment. Who wants in on the pool for when that project gets announced?

[markster]

As a church, they should have been mindful of the wise use of resources.
As a church, in these days of declining attendance, their most precious resource is money. And if it's more cost efficient to start from scratch, then I'm not going to hold that against them.

[BuildingScout]

There is nothing wrong with taking down an unremarkable building. The famously pleasant cities of Europe were built by preserving nice buildings***, not by forbidding the demolition of ugly ones.

*** See Kitchener, Old City Hall (http://pesg.staging2.peaceworks.ca/system/files/paintings/28/2860%20Spring%20at%20the%20Old%20City%20Hall%20%28 1953%29.jpg).

[DKsan]

As a church, in these days of declining attendance, their most precious resource is money. And if it's more cost efficient to start from scratch, then I'm not going to hold that against them.
Err, didn't Knox rebuilding their church because of RISINg attendance? Please take your biases away from this specific topic when it's the opposite.

[diego]

I really, really hope that they decide to sell the former church lot (new surface parking lot) to develop something useful eventually... it's just ridiculous how urbanistically regressive this development is! it seems that we are back in the 60s...

[dscassel]

For a minute there, it looked like they might have left the old steeple standing, which would've made a cool public art garden feature. Alas, twas not meant to be.

[markster]

Err, didn't Knox rebuilding their church because of RISINg attendance? Please take your biases away from this specific topic when it's the opposite.
I don't know the specific situation of this church, I only knew rough overall trends. (possibly outdated? please correct me if so.)
Nor did I intend for it to be some kind of "biased" statement, of which I do not know what agenda I am presumably pushing.

I still think that choosing the economically sound approach is the best one. Environmentalism and all other forms of "sustainability" are nice plusses, but I'd rather they stretch their dollars as far as they can take them, and get the most facility for their invested dollar.

[bcwessel]

I don't know the specific situation of this church, I only knew rough overall trends. (possibly outdated? please correct me if so.)
Nor did I intend for it to be some kind of "biased" statement, of which I do not know what agenda I am presumably pushing.

I still think that choosing the economically sound approach is the best one. Environmentalism and all other forms of "sustainability" are nice plusses, but I'd rather they stretch their dollars as far as they can take them, and get the most facility for their invested dollar.

I take it your esteem of sustainable urbanisms is more along the lines of marketable greenwash, and not as a component requirement for species survival?

[markster]

The last organization I would force expensive "green" development on would be a church or other non-profit.

[bcwessel]

The last organization I would force expensive "green" development on would be a church or other non-profit.

Nobody said anything about expensive green technologies (which, in my estimation, aren't very sustainable anyway). We were talking about renovating an existing building as a more sustainable model of development than tearing down existing structures and carting them to the landfill.

[Brenden]

I really, really hope that they decide to sell the former church lot (new surface parking lot) to develop something useful eventually... it's just ridiculous how urbanistically regressive this development is! it seems that we are back in the 60s...
My understanding is the parking lot will remain, and that the church is to be a multi use building, rental space for meetins, performances as well as offices for non profit groups.

[metropolis]

As a church, in these days of declining attendance, their most precious resource is money. And if it's more cost efficient to start from scratch, then I'm not going to hold that against them.

It was more money to build the new structure than it would have been to renovate the old one. The church presented both options to the congregation and the congregation voted to build the new structure, then put their money where their mouths are by raising the million + dollars extra that the new church cost.

[DHLawrence]

If they had renovated there would be complaints that they spent too much money renovating and could have spent it on food banks instead. Some people just can't be pleased.

[WaterlooNative]

Likewise, they could have renovated the existing building and still raised the money for food banks etc (whether or not that would have happened is another question). And yes, I realize that it's not my building, so why should I dictate what someone else does with their building.

Given enough market pressure, someone could have breathed live into the old building. At least it had more church character to it than the plain, nearly-stucco box that now sits on the corner. Once CIGI, Perimeter and the hole that may become a hotel are finished that corner will have several multi-use, convention-worthy spaces. Is that too much competition?

If we tear everything down, we'll have nothing left of our past urban fabric. Just because Waterloo's older architecture doesn't match the grandeur of a Union Station, a cathedral or even many warehouse/factory spaces suitable for re-use doesn't meant that everything else should be knocked down too.

[BuildingScout]

At least it had more church character to it than the plain, nearly-stucco box that now sits on the corner.

I prefer the new, curved roof structure than the old faux-antique church that used to sit there. Different strokes for different folks.

[Brenden]

A big part of the decision to rebuild was because it was dame near imposible to make the whole building wheelchair accessible, and well that becomes more important as the congregation gets older. Correct me if I am wrong but I do not even thing the sanctuary was accessible.

[panamaniac]

+1. I suspect if this were anything other than a church, there would be much less huffing and puffing about various perceived shortcomings and "what ifs". I see a good building that succeeds in expressing "contemporary Presbyterian", that's appropriate to its site, and a positive contribution by a confident congregation to creating a sustainable Uptown urban environment. As for the parking lot on the site of the old church - as with other urban churches, there is nothing to prevent its development when the time is right and the church needs the resources that development would generate.