Highway 7 & 85 Improvements | Krug Street to Waterloo Road 15

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Highway 7 & 85 Improvements
Krug Street to Waterloo Road 15
Kitchener & Waterloo
Class "C" Environmental Assessment

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.481076,-80.500431&spn=0.061905,0.132351&t=h&z=13

Improvements include:
Numerous structure (bridge and culvert) rehabilitations Complete resurfacing Illumination Improvements Addition of overhead signage Upgrades to MTO's COMPASS system (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/trip/compass.shtml) |

[metropolis]

Does this include the removal of the completely useless median between Victoria and Lancaster? All this median does is make people move into the outside or next to outside lane as far back as Courtland because they know "eventually" they will need to get there, thereby impeding traffic up and down the highway.

[Spokes]

Does this include the removal of the completely useless median between Victoria and Lancaster? All this median does is make people move into the outside or next to outside lane as far back as Courtland because they know "eventually" they will need to get there, thereby impeding traffic up and down the highway.

It should, but I don't know.

Was that in discussions, to get rid of it?

[Urbanomicon]

What they should really do is properly label is as a "Collectors" section instead of an exit. I have seen lots of cars, probably visiting the area, swerve to get on one side or the other because they don't know both sides are through paths.

[IEFBR14]

What they should really do is properly label is as a "Collectors" section instead of an exit. I have seen lots of cars, probably visiting the area, swerve to get on one side or the other because they don't know both sides are through paths.
Similar situation for traffic coming off Hwy8 onto Hwy85 heading towards Waterloo. The new interchange has very long ramps on Hwy85 so there's no rush to change lanes to stay on the Conestoga Parkway until you approach Ottawa St and then, only if you're in the extreme right lane. I can't count the number of times I've seen people cross 3 or 4 lanes of traffic while still accelerating off the ramp. There's no need for them to do it and it's dangerous, especially if there's lots of traffic coming at them.

[Waterlooer]

If they remove that median, would they add 1 extra lane in each direction because there would be a lot of space between the 2 lanes. That would be a problem though because it would be a 10 lane highway switching to a 4 lane highway...

[neonjoe]

To remove the collectors wouldn't all the bridges require rebuilding as they have pillars between the core and collector lanes?

[KevinL]

To remove the collectors wouldn't all the bridges require rebuilding as they have pillars between the core and collector lanes?

Yup, all four bridges in that section (Frederick, Victoria, rail lines, Wellington) have pillars in the express-collector medians.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I really hope they consider widening the expressway from Lancaster to King. I was driving south from King today at 4:30 and it was maybe crawling at 35 km/h. I wonder if the traffic volumes warrant this? It's especially bad near University Ave and between Bridgeport/Lancaster.

[mpd618]

I really hope they consider widening the expressway from Lancaster to King. I was driving south from King today at 4:30 and it was maybe crawling at 35 km/h. I wonder if the traffic volumes warrant this? It's especially bad near University Ave and between Bridgeport/Lancaster.

Sigh. And then we'll get induced demand and more growth and we'll be back where we started. Can we just introduce congestion pricing and solve the supply-demand mismatch directly?

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Sigh. And then we'll get induced demand and more growth and we'll be back where we started. Can we just introduce congestion pricing and solve the supply-demand mismatch directly?

Try telling that to the 100,000 people who use the Conestoga Parkway on a daily basis (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/408-Small-Road-amp-Infrastructure-Construction?p=18534#post18534)and our politicians. Or London, Ontario who doesn't even have an expressway. We are lucky to have it in the first place.

Introduce congestion pricing, and people will use other roads like Weber and overwhelm them.

[dunkalunk]

If they can get the infrastructure figured out, this corridor is ideal for BRT, and should be considered in the widening

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

If they can get the infrastructure figured out, this corridor is ideal for BRT, and should be considered in the widening

PICs will be coming up for this project, and you should definitely tell the consultants this. There were emails too I saw that you can send suggestions to, and hopefully I can find those again and post them here...

[plam]

Try telling that to the 100,000 people who use the Conestoga Parkway on a daily basis (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/408-Small-Road-amp-Infrastructure-Construction?p=18534#post18534)and our politicians. Or London, Ontario who doesn't even have an expressway. We are lucky to have it in the first place.

Introduce congestion pricing, and people will use other roads like Weber and overwhelm them.

Well, if everyone went to Weber, then the Parkway wouldn't be jammed, right?

Or, maybe people would actually have to think about whether they should drive or whether they should instead be taking rapid transit.

There's no way that just making the highway wider is really going to solve the congestion problem. When does that ever work?

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

There's no way that just making the highway wider is really going to solve the congestion problem. When does that ever work?

Ever since the Conestoga Parkway was doubled in width from 4 to 8 lanes from Frederick Street to Highway 8 in 2000, I have never seen or heard any congestion other than from an accident. Yes it does work. They can even go further by getting rid of the grassy median and installing a concrete barrier, which will give them some room for an extra lane anyways and improve safety at the same time. There have been numerous deadly cross-over accidents in this stretch over the past few years.

The number of people using the expressway to quickly get in/out of the Region is very high as well, and widening will be a welcome change.

[mpd618]

Try telling that to the 100,000 people who use the Conestoga Parkway on a daily basis (http://www.wonderfulwaterloo.com/showthread.php/408-Small-Road-amp-Infrastructure-Construction?p=18534#post18534)and our politicians. Or London, Ontario who doesn't even have an expressway. We are lucky to have it in the first place.

I'm often enough one of those people, and the utility I derive from it is not based on how wide it is, but based on whether I can make my trip [at a good speed]. Indeed, I actually feel much less comfortable driving on 8 lane highways relative to 4 and 6 lane ones. Just because we already have this infrastructure - which is indeed useful - doesn't mean we should be expanding it. You get diminishing returns for additional trips.


Introduce congestion pricing, and people will use other roads like Weber and overwhelm them.

The least useful trips will disappear altogether. Some will go to other routes with spare capacity -- which will take more time. Many will shift to a different time of day that is less busy. And quite a few would be able to choose transit that isn't stuck in traffic. Sorry - this scenario does not strike fear into my heart. I don't think it is anywhere as dire as you are implying.

[mpd618]

Ever since the Conestoga Parkway was doubled in width from 4 to 8 lanes from Frederick Street to Highway 8 in 2000, I have never seen or heard any congestion other than from an accident. Yes it does work.

You just mentioned congestion yourself. On a different section of the route... except that it's part of the same highway, and it's only natural that you're seeing congestion on the part that has fewer lanes. Remove that bottleneck, demand will increase, and the bottleneck will move elsewhere - perhaps back to the section that you say "does work". Unless you have no growth, and people are already at their limits on how much they're willing to drive, widening is a very temporary solution.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

I'm often enough one of those people, and the utility I derive from it is not based on how wide it is, but based on whether I can make my trip. Indeed, I actually feel much less comfortable driving on 8 lane highways relative to 4 and 6 lane ones. Just because we already have this infrastructure - which is indeed useful - doesn't mean we should be expanding it. You get diminishing returns, and the trips

It should only be widened to 6 lanes, which is less overwhelming than an 8 lane highway. The upgrades should be similar to what is proposed from Courtland - Fischer-Hallman. Switching lanes on a carriageway that is >4 lanes does require more caution. There is difficulty making your trip now at 4:30 pm now anyways, so the derived utility is low. Today, I had a very impatient driver behind me who was tailgating, then swerved quickly to exit at Bridgeport, almost in the path of an oncoming vehicle in the exiting lane. As in my previous post, past widenings to the Parkway have proven useful, so I don't see a reason not to expand it.


The least useful trips will disappear altogether. Some will go to other routes with spare capacity -- which will take more time. Many will shift to a different time of day that is less busy. And quite a few would be able to choose transit that isn't stuck in traffic. Sorry - this scenario does not strike fear into my heart. I don't think it is anywhere as dire as you are implying.

We've been here before. Yes, in an ideal world where politics wasn't such a game and suburban driving soccer moms didn't exist, this would no doubt work. Easier said than done in this case.


You just mentioned congestion yourself. On a different section of the route... except that it's part of the same highway, and it's only natural that you're seeing congestion on the part that has fewer lanes. Remove that bottleneck, demand will increase, and the bottleneck will move elsewhere - perhaps back to the section that you say "does work". Unless you have no growth, and people are already at their limits on how much they're willing to drive, widening is a very temporary solution.

Really? The Parkway was always 8 lanes between Lancaster and Frederick and was never congested. When they extended the 8 lanes towards Highway 8, it never moved the congestion somewhere else. Doesn't seem like a temporary solution to me.

[Spokes]

Ever since the Conestoga Parkway was doubled in width from 4 to 8 lanes from Frederick Street to Highway 8 in 2000, I have never seen or heard any congestion other than from an accident. Yes it does work. They can even go further by getting rid of the grassy median and installing a concrete barrier, which will give them some room for an extra lane anyways and improve safety at the same time. There have been numerous deadly cross-over accidents in this stretch over the past few years.

The number of people using the expressway to quickly get in/out of the Region is very high as well, and widening will be a welcome change.

The issue of congestion comes when it goes FROM 8 lanes to 4 all at once.

[Waterlooer]

Don't you think the expressway is busier between Lancaster and King rather than from Highway 8 to Fischer-Hallman? I don't understand why they decided to expand that part of the expressway instead?

[Daev]

Don't you think the expressway is busier between Lancaster and King rather than from Highway 8 to Fischer-Hallman? I don't understand why they decided to expand that part of the expressway instead?

I agree ... in my 5+ years of experience driving this stretch daily, the real problem of congestion seems to happen in the stretch where it goes from 8 - 4 Lane. (Especially at the Bridgeport Exit! That zone is always an accident waiting to happen.) Not so much towards Northbound Waterloo, but more so Southbound Kitchener where Bridgeport has to merge before Lancaster. People who merge in this stretch are only given about 100 Meters to find their spot in the next lane. When traffic is heavy, this can be quite scary .. both for those in the right hand lane and those who expect to merge from Bridgeport.

I too wonder why they believe the need for widening has to happen by Fischer-Hallman, when it seems to me that the more desperately needed widening should probably happen from Bridgeport - University Ave.

[Urbanomicon]

I really hope they consider widening the expressway from Lancaster to King. I was driving south from King today at 4:30 and it was maybe crawling at 35 km/h. I wonder if the traffic volumes warrant this? It's especially bad near University Ave and between Bridgeport/Lancaster.

This is in the works. If I remember correctly the MTO is planning on looking at this sometime around 2015.

[Urbanomicon]

Don't you think the expressway is busier between Lancaster and King rather than from Highway 8 to Fischer-Hallman? I don't understand why they decided to expand that part of the expressway instead?

Personally, having driven from hgiway 8 to Fischer-Hallman daily, I would say the traffic is comparable, at least from highway 8 to Homer Watson. The reason I believe that this was chosen first is that a lot of accidents occer between the highway 8 and Courtland interchanges, Traffic coming off of highway 8 has about 150m to move over two lanes in order avoid the Courtland exit, while parkway traffic is also trying to enter the Courtland exit lane. This stretch is backed up daily during rush hour.

[Waterlooer]

(Especially at the Bridgeport Exit! That zone is always an accident waiting to happen.) Not so much towards Northbound Waterloo, but more so Southbound Kitchener where Bridgeport has to merge before Lancaster. People who merge in this stretch are only given about 100 Meters to find their spot in the next lane.

I too wonder why they believe the need for widening has to happen by Fischer-Hallman, when it seems to me that the more desperately needed widening should probably happen from Bridgeport - University Ave.

Yeah, that section is by far the worst! It's very congested, mixed in with the small section for people to merge and it has a bad curve there. If you go southbound at 5:00pm from King to Lancaster, it's a nightmare... you're going about 30km/h.

I haven't been on the 7/8 part of the expressway too much, but from what I've seen, the part from King to Lancaster is much more congested (rush-hour and non-rush-hour experiences).

[Waterlooer]

They need some lights on highway 85 north of University, it's pitch black at night time.

[IEFBR14]

Expressway getting another facelift
26Feb11 | Jeff Outhit | Record | Link (http://www.therecord.com/opinion/columns/article/493190--expressway-getting-another-facelift)
Ontario intends to repave Highway 85 through Waterloo, perhaps next year. But it has no plans to widen the four-lane expressway, despite rush-hour slowdowns.

“The ministry will continue to monitor the progress of the Region of Waterloo’s plans for rapid transit in the area to determine if there will be a need for widening the highway in the future,” Ministry of Transportation spokesperson Bob Nichols says.

Resurfacing is welcome news. It’s one of many expressway upgrades completed, planned or underway in Kitchener and Waterloo. For example:

The province recently spent $2.4 million to repave the expressway between Courtland Avenue and Krug Street in Kitchener.

This year, it plans to launch a three-year widening of the expressway between Courtland and Fischer-Hallman Road in Kitchener, costing $150 million.

Widening of Highway 8 between Fairway Road and Sportsworld Drive in Kitchener is to conclude this year. It cost $70 million.

Previously, Ontario widened the expressway between Courtland and Ottawa Street and built the flyover onto Highway 8 above King Street in Kitchener.

If the province ever builds the promised new Highway 7 to Guelph (estimated cost $294 million), motorists can expect a massive overhaul of the Kitchener interchange. Plans call for a tower of concrete and motion that will stack four levels of traffic.

All this construction speaks to the importance of the expressway, a visionary 1960s project that’s been wildly successful.

Repaving the expressway in Waterloo is planned to launch between 2012 and 2014, from Lancaster Street to King Street. Repaving between Krug and Lancaster streets is planned but is still without a launch date. The work will include repairs to 14 bridges, improved lighting and overhead signs.

The province has been advertising the facelift and will eventually host an open house to present final plans. No cost estimate has been released.

It’s unfortunate that Waterloo will not get six lanes. The expressway slows down through the city in peak periods. However, congestion seems not as severe as in west Kitchener, and expressway traffic falls off north of Waterloo.

The province forecasts expressway traffic will increase by up to 20 per cent by 2016. Rapid transit may launch by 2017 in the twin cities.

It would be great if it takes cars off the highway. Don’t bet the mortgage.

[Waterlooer]

Thanks for that link, it has made me real happy! I'm very glad the MTO is considering to widen highway 85 in the future, at least that's a start.

Someone commented to the article:


There HAS to be something done about the bottleneck on 85 just before the Bridgeport exit. I understand that there needs to be plans put in to help out the traffic coming in from the new sub-divisions going in up around Fischer-Hallman, but what about everyone who works up in North Waterloo? Not only is the bottleneck around Bridgeport a MASSIVE inconvenience, it can also be incredibly dangerous. I can't count how many times I've seen people abuse the collector lanes, trying to blast past everyone so they can get 5 cars ahead, then aggressively force their way into the merge lane. Fix the existing problems before you drop $150 million widening other areas of the highway... sheesh.

[Duke-of-Waterloo]

Expressway getting another facelift
26Feb11 | Jeff Outhit | Record | Link (http://www.therecord.com/opinion/columns/article/493190--expressway-getting-another-facelift)

“The ministry will continue to monitor the progress of the Region of Waterloo’s plans for rapid transit in the area to determine if there will be a need for widening the highway in the future,” Ministry of Transportation spokesperson Bob Nichols says.

That's a weak argument. While it might be true, why didn't the MTO say the same thing for widening the expressway to 6 lanes west of Courtland? They're obviously widening it there, but won't the LRT have the same effect for that portion as well? Since they aren't saying/doing consistent things for improvements to two different parts of the Expressway, I'm not too sure I believe that's the true reason behind it.

What happens if the MTO decides to widen this portion of the Expressway five years from now? They will have to resurface yet again, so where does the investment in a new coat of asphalt go that they're committing to now?

[Waterlooer]

Didn't they just resurface this part of the expressway? It's very smooth and no cracks...

[mpd618]

That's a weak argument. While it might be true, why didn't the MTO say the same thing for widening the expressway to 6 lanes west of Courtland? They're obviously widening it there, but won't the LRT have the same effect for that portion as well? Since they aren't saying/doing consistent things for improvements to two different parts of the Expressway, I'm not too sure I believe that's the true reason behind it.

East-west is different from north-south.

[Urbanomicon]

What happens if the MTO decides to widen this portion of the Expressway five years from now? They will have to resurface yet again, so where does the investment in a new coat of asphalt go that they're committing to now?

Not to mention the money that they are putting into bridge maintenance for bridges that will eventually have to be widened or replaced.

[Waterlooer]

East-west is different from north-south.

But the north-south gets more congested than the east-west.

[mpd618]

But the north-south gets more congested than the east-west.

Fine, I'll elaborate: many north-south trips through the Region would be able to be served along the Rapid Transit corridor, and so that project is relevant to the demand for travel along the corresponding portion of the expressway. The same does not hold for the east-west portion.

Ontario sounds like it wants to get its money's worth for the $300 million it is investing in Rapid Transit here.

[bzmwillemsen]

One reason I see them for putting off the expansion of this stretch of the highway is that the Region's Master Plan does not have any new development in this area and will not justify the expansion to happen immediately.

[Urbanomicon]

But the north-south gets more congested than the east-west.

As someone who regularly goes through the East-West congestion and sometimes goes through the North-South congestion, I would say that the East-West congestion is worse, specifically the section between Homer Watson and Highway 8.

It is also more dangerous in my opinion. Traffic exiting from Highway 8 going West has to go across two lanes of the highway in about 150m in order to not exit at Courtland, and traffic from the highway has to move over the other way to get off at Courtland on the same stretch of road.

[Waterlooer]

I would say the portion of highway 85 from Bridgeport to Wellington is the worst. You have to merge over 2 lanes (3 if your coming off Wellington street) as the 8 lane highway turns into 4 lanes, there is also that curve in this section of the expressway and getting onto the expressway is very hard during rush-hours going south bound from Bridgeport road (it's very congested, very little time to merge over, the highway curves, and people also try to get onto your lane because it exits to Lancaster.

I totally understand your points, it's very easy to make an argument for both cases.

[dunkalunk]

When they do finally decide to widen/improve safety on highway 85, I hope they reconfigure the ramps at Bridgeport and Lancaster to look something like this. (http://goo.gl/maps/H2e3) Some ramps are removed or modified to reduce weaving while not causing major disruptions to access. I actually think an offramp from 85 north to Lancaster towards bridge would be an improvement be reducing many double-left turns for people heading to Bridgeport.

If it is decided that Highway 85 is to get bus bypass shoulders (which it should to parallel Fischer-Hallman in the west) then a stop of a BRT at Lancaster would anchor the south end of the Lancaster Mixed-Use Corridor. The ramp re-configutration would also open up previously inaccessible land to development directly adjacent to this station. This is just my take on things, but highway BRT has a lot of potential to influence development directly around it, as stops cannot be nearly as easily moved as street-running BRT. Not nearly as much as LRT mind you, but still significant.

[Waterlooer]

I really like the ideas you have. Looking at the map you made, it makes perfect sense to eliminate the Bridgeport road ramp going south bound and make a new one at the lights you showed.

[dunkalunk]

When the roundabout and bridge rehab were being done at Lancaster and Bridge, the region put up a traffic light at this intersection to allow detoured southbound traffic from Bridge to access the temporary bridge across the Grand River (this can be seen in street view). The traffic light here really helped to fix the speed trap while going eastbound on Erb/Bridgeport (people routinely go 90km/h on this stretch without realizing it). I kind of wish they had just left it in operation. If the ramps are realigned, then there would at least be a good excuse to re-implement it and make left turns off the highway a lot easier.

[plam]

When they do finally decide to widen/improve safety on highway 85, I hope they reconfigure the ramps at Bridgeport and Lancaster to look something like this. (http://goo.gl/maps/H2e3) Some ramps are removed or modified to reduce weaving while not causing major disruptions to access. I actually think an offramp from 85 north to Lancaster towards bridge would be an improvement be reducing many double-left turns for people heading to Bridgeport.

If it is decided that Highway 85 is to get bus bypass shoulders (which it should to parallel Fischer-Hallman in the west) then a stop of a BRT at Lancaster would anchor the south end of the Lancaster Mixed-Use Corridor. The ramp re-configutration would also open up previously inaccessible land to development directly adjacent to this station. This is just my take on things, but highway BRT has a lot of potential to influence development directly around it, as stops cannot be nearly as easily moved as street-running BRT. Not nearly as much as LRT mind you, but still significant.

Yeah, I bike past there all the time (3x per week or more). A mixed-use trail would be really useful, although there's still a significant slope going under the highway. I'm not sure it would be better to make traffic do a left turn instead to get onto the highway, because a lot of people go onto the highway that way. But the forced left turn would be less scary than the Sobey's truck that was barrelling right by me at that ramp yesterday. I didn't like that.

I did notice the temporary light, and was wondering what the deal was with it. There's also often speed traps around there.

[dunkalunk]

Oh, so maybe this idea is crackpot, maybe not, but what would people think of adding partial/directional ramps at Lexington Road to serve North Campus and Beechwood better? A lot of the congestion problems on Univerisity today are due to the fact that it is the only direct and practical arterial road with highway access to get across this part of town, and therefore a lot of highway-bound traffic is being funnelled onto it.

The ramps could look something like this. (http://goo.gl/maps/mRpJ)

[Razzie]

Having lived right near that very spot for years the ramp next to the plaza would definitely not work. I always wished they had put in ramps right to the Davenport/Lexington intersection, but they can't now that the retirement home has had a couple of expansions blocking its way.